A bizarre critique of Capitalism ... ideas?

I also want people to ride on unicorns and have infinite food. So what.

Good. Do you have any plans for how we could make that happen? I think GE foods can get us closer to that infinite food. So let’s stick it to Greenpeace (they are anti “frankenfood”)!

Stick with one claim and prove it. If it’s apriori true that the poor would be better off receiving in shares and capital than in money, then prove it

You will be happy to know I am a much bigger fan of a postiori knowledge and empiricism.

If you want an a priori I hold to be true it is that expansion of (responsible/critical) education is progressive for both people and markets. Another one I hold true is that individuals without healthcare will be far more likely to die of treatable conditions. Another is that subsistence becomes less of an issue, and people become freer to pursue their passions when their money makes money for them. States are created by people trying to protect their interests, and the economic power of an individual or class will decide his/its role in the state.

Stop making socialist-esque assertions and running away with “thats just what I wanted to happen, I’m not saying people should make it happen, or that it would happen, or anything…”

What are you talking about? I do think people should make it happen, that was my whole point. And I have provided some claims for how it is happening as we speak. This assertion is just baseless.

No, I don’t, and neither do you, for what you want people to have.

And I think riding ponies is progressive for bringing world peace. I believe the day men everywhere are riding ponies, humanity will proper like never before.
That’s hardly a priori. “Education” is far too general, and it does not always follow that it is progressive (desirable?) for the market’s ends. In fact it can never follow a-prioristically that any one goal or means is progressive for a market. At least praxeologically. I don’t know what hell of a theory you’re using.

I don’t feel like answering the rest. You do this too much. People write paragraphs and paragraphs addressing every little non-sequitur of yours, and it diffuses the message. My message is, stop doing that. Stick with one claim, thanks.

You think people should do what you want them to do, but you give no rationale for it, nor are your empty moral insights appealing to anyone who’s not a feel-good socialist. “gee, I think everyone should be able to ride ponies too!”

I think this is arguing in a vacuum. Look at the outcry there is when people lose their pensions. I think they have gotten used ot the way things are, and it would take catastrophic collapse of society to regress it

Neither here nor there. If that is what people want fine, if not fine.

But I dont really buy the incentive problem of social welfare,

Hmmm. I wouldnt mind discussing this in another thread.

I agree. I think that is obvious. Teachers love to teach, I know because half my family are teachers, and universal education would be a great boon to social mobility. (I know that’s not what you meant lol).

My point is that low paying jobs are the opportunities… not formal education.

It’s not so much the wage system per se, as it is the wage systems ability to sustain long term growth of wealth; which is not very good. Money, by itself, is merely a facilitator of personal consumption. What I am proposing is people being given an easier oppurtunity to start having their money make money.

My only point is that with ownership comes additional risks. When a wage laborer takes a job the only risk they take is that they might lose their job.

In your scenario the worker would be paid 20% less then the that 20% would go to purchasing stock in the company. The worker now has 20% of his income at risk where as in the above scenario the worker is gauranteed 100% of his pay.

This is a bad deal for most. But if it is what people truely want then that is the pay structure the market will bear. If not then it wont.

Yuberries, I have been entirely consistent this whole time. Your assertions are absolutely baseless. Not surprising coming from a worshipper of Alex Jones. Ooooooh I can ad hominem too (For the record I like Jones, but he does make a ton of baseless assertions)

But, like I said, I am a much bigger fan of postiori;

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,17311,18168,25757,25854,26209,26218,26339,26637,26788,26992,27013,27046&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=educations+effect+on+the+market&cp=29&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=educations+effect+on+the+mark&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=cac716aade6fa416

Cole and Shastry use a very large dataset new to the literature in order to study the important determinants of financial market participation. They find that higher levels of education and cognitive ability cause increased participation

another one

Previous work shows that higher levels of education quality (as measured by international student achievement tests) increases growth rates of national income. This paper begins by confirming those findings in an analysis involving more countries over more time with additional controls. We then use the panel structure of our data to assess whether the mechanism by which education quality appears to improve per capita income levels is through shifting the level of the production function (probably not), through increasing the impact of an additional year of education (probably not), or through increasing a country’s rate of technological progress (very likely).

I find human socieities too complex for “one assertion.” But my position has been this whole time;

We should support universal healthcare because it is the morally right thing to do (imo)

We should support universal education because it is both morally (imo) and practically right (in the academic communities opinion)

Everyone should be provided basic neccessities if the need or desire them because this will stabilize the poorer members of the communities’ lives, allowing them to easilier pursue their passions.

People are better served when their money makes money for them for the same reasons as above.

I dont know how I can be any more consistent. Your assertions are baseless.

Hmmm. I wouldnt mind discussing this in another thread.

I would join that discussion

My only point is that with ownership comes additional risks. When a wage laborer takes a job the only risk they take is that they might lose their job.

In your scenario the worker would be paid 20% less then the that 20% would go to purchasing stock in the company. The worker now has 20% of his income at risk where as in the above scenario the worker is gauranteed 100% of his pay.

This is a bad deal for most. But if it is what people truely want then that is the pay structure the market will bear. If not then it wont

In our current system it could be major risk. It will be a risk nonetheless, but in a system where people have to pay for their (basic) subsistence themselves, low income workers have far less disposable income. Taking my views as a whole, people would have far more disposable income with which to risk.

When you say “we”, you mean charities, correct?

I mean every living man woman and child. It should be a part of human nature. WHen someone says “he was never able to get an education” people should be disgusted by that. Seeing a family struggle and fight every night over the bills should make you cringe.

If you mean should it be provided charitously, rather than through a coercive tax structure… well obviously.

Well, the state already provides free (and compulsory) universal K-12 education, and yet many still do not take “advantage” (to the extent public school gives anyone an “advantage”). At what point do we accept that the individual does not value his education over the alternate ways he chooses to use his time?

It should make you cringe a lot less when you consider that poverty-level citizens in today’s industrialized countries have far higher standards of living than all but the elite of just 2 centuries ago (even despite exponential population growth since). This general prosperity has been achieved because savings has allowed for capital accumulation which increased productivity. I know it’s tempting to imagine how much all this saved wealth could improve the lives of the poorer people by enabling them to consume more, but in the long run, robbing from savings and investment for consumption will only slow future productivity increases which would have benefitted the poor even more greatly by increasing the real purchasing power of their meager incomes.

I’m just glad that we didn’t decide as a society in the 1800’s that we’d accumulated enough capital, and it was now time to rest and stop saving and enjoy the fruits of our current technology. We would have missed out on so many of the technological developments of the industrial revolution and beyond that improved EVERYONE’S lives, rich and poor.

Well, the state already provides free (and compulsory) universal K-12 education, and yet many still do not take “advantage” (to the extent public school gives anyone an “advantage”). At what point do we accept that the individual does not value his education over the alternate ways he chooses to use his time?

I never said that we should be disgusted if someone does not recieve an education. But we should be disgusted if he wanted to, but could not. This is why compulsory education is so backward (and immoral as all get-out). Many leftists think that because education is such a good thing we should force it on people. Yet they dont realize that is impossible. Even forcing them into the school does nothing, they will just lay their head down and not learn anything anyway.

The individual makes his own valuation on education or not. But if he values it, it is my view he should be provided it.

It should make you cringe a lot less when you consider that poverty-level citizens in today’s industrialized countries have far higher standards of living than all but the elite of just 2 centuries ago (even despite exponential population growth since). This general prosperity has been achieved because savings has allowed for capital accumulation which increased productivity. I know it’s tempting to imagine how much all this saved wealth could improve the lives of the poorer people by enabling them to consume more, but in the long run, robbing from savings and investment for consumption will only slow future productivity increases which would have benefitted the poor even more greatly by increasing the real purchasing power of their meager incomes.

I have been saying that to my fellow leftists (and everyone else) for years. Poor people in america today live better, at least in subsistence, than the kings of europe. If the argument were capitalism v feudalism, Im choosing capitalism every time, hands down. (But, as it was recently pointed out to me, its more capital sophistication than accumulation, per se. Even if accumulation does contribute to sophistication)

But I am not wanting to provide more for the poor to increase consumerism (except in consuming of basic necessities). I am wanting to provide them more so they can easilier become capital accumulators. Im an anarchist, Im well aware of the problems of robbing Peter to pay Paul. But that doesn’t make me support these ideas any less. I see no reason why they can’t be provided voluntarily, barring people’s own subjective ethics, which can be changed.

If charity is not utilitarian, why support/donate to it at all?

I’m just glad that we didn’t decide as a society in the 1800’s that we’d accumulated enough capital, and it was now time to rest and stop saving and enjoy the fruits of our current technology. We would have missed out on so many of the technological developments of the industrial revolution and beyond that improved EVERYONE’S lives, rich and poor.

As am I. Socialism was never an argument that “we have gone far enough.” It is actually an argument that we have not gone far enough, that by empowering workers, which is most of the population, we can further increase capital accumulation and the capacities of the market. The argument is that most of the benefit of captialism (as opposed to market economics) goes to the ownership class, which is almost entirely the same class that held all the power in feudalism. And who would say that feudal landowners are/should be the legitimate owners of their land?

When you say they’re still same class, are you saying it’s the same family lineages themselves that control the power (and that social mobility is and was too difficult), or that today there still exists an analagous socio-economic hierarchy and similar patterns of exploitation to feudalism?

When you say they’re still same class, are you saying it’s the same family lineages themselves that control the power (and that social mobility is and was too difficult), or that today there still exists an analagous socio-economic hierarchy and similar patterns of exploitation to feudalism?

It is largely the same lineages that hold power. I think it is something like 14 presidents can trace their lineage back to the nobles. And in europe, the nobles still are the largest owners of things.

Even in america, old money has most of the money, even if new money are the richest individually. And most of them (old money) can trace back to feudal nobles. Capitalism did much for social mobility. But it did nothing to correct the previous millenia of exploitation of the populace.

There are too many non-sequiturs. Too many.

How are they non-sequiters tho?

If we want a more prosperous society we should support education, healthcare, and subsistence to stablilze people’s lives and provide them with the oppurtunity to better themselves.

It is consistent, and it follows from its premises. Even if its truth value is nil, it is still a valid argument within the frameworks of logic.

If A (one has a stable life, and the oppurtunity to educate themselves) then B (society will be prosperous).

If A (one has a stable life, and the oppurtunity to educate themselves) then B (society will be prosperous).

This is one. Is it not possible that a stable life and an opportunity to educate yourself follows from a prosperous society? After all life in the Soviet Union was very stable and education was universal… but it was not a prosperous society.

What is required for a prosperous society is variable. It depends on the needs of a society. If everyone in a closed economy had PHDs in economics would that be a prosperous society? No. There is no need for that many economic PHDs. All of that education would be a huge waste of resources and would lead to a poorer society.

I understand that you place value in these things. I do too. But they are not some magic bullet that eliminates poverty. People being free is.

This is one. Is it not possible that a stable life and an opportunity to educate yourself follows from a prosperous society? After all life in the Soviet Union was very stable and education was universal… but it was not a prosperous society.

Standing in line for hours waiting to get food, and cumpolsury indoctrination are not stable lives and universal education. The soviet system of schooling was entirely dependant upon propagandizing for the state. I’m talking more about people setting up community funds for private, or at least independant schools. I had said this in another thread, and I guess to me it is assumed, but for others probably not. But what I’m arguing for is universal critical education. Any kind of education that doesn’t include critical thinking is merely indoctrination, much like our system.

Numerous studies have shown positive correlations between income, market activity, and education.

But they are not some magic bullet that eliminates poverty.

No, but they have been shown to be at least adequate bullets at lowering poverty. Not to mention the effect it has on the culture of poverty and its role in tempering that. Not everyone has to be a phd, nor should they. But if they desire to learn something, they should be given that oppurtunity. Education isn’t all about schools, libraries are a huge part of it as well.

Only individuals can determine what is stable. Only individuals can determine value.

Standing in line for hours waiting to get food, and cumpolsury indoctrination are not stable lives and universal education. The soviet system of schooling was entirely dependant upon propagandizing for the state. I’m talking more about people setting up community funds for private, or at least independant schools.

Sure it is. Its very stable. Its static and unchanging. As far as education is concerned the problem was that the education given to the population had no economic value.

But what I’m arguing for is universal critical education. Any kind of education that doesn’t include critical thinking is merely indoctrination, much like our system.

Universal critical education is the same. It might have econmonic value but yet again it might not. It depends on what is needed in the econmony. For example there may be no need for any critical thinkers in an econmony, but there might be a shortage of ditch diggers. If everyone in the society has a critical thinking education it would have been a waste of resources.

This is why they are saying that your conclusion s are not following from your premises. You are stating your prefrences then saying it would lead to a prosperous society. When it could very well lead to a less proserous society. We refrain from saying there should be X amount of education or people should be paid this way.

Because we have no way of knowing if it is true or not.

I’m not a follower of Alex Jones, and never was. I just think he’s a pretty cool guy, eh fights the new world order and doesn’t afraid of anything.

Sigh, another feel-good statement. Who “should” give them that opportunity? By should, you think someone is obligated to give them education? If not, then why use “should”? You might instead just be honest and say “I wish someone would”, instead of “someone should”.

I also think those who desire to ride on ponies “should be given that opportunity”. Because riding ponies has been correlated with X, and I like X too. I also think everyone likes X, and ponies, and so it follows that everyone should be given a pony. By who? And how? I dunno! I just think it’s the right thing to do.

^This is what you’ve been doing. Stop before I pull my eyes out please. Ty.

Sigh, another feel-good statement. Who “should” give them that opportunity?

Me. You. Everyone.

By should, you think someone is obligated to give them education

Morally, yes. But we don’t always live up to our obligations, now do we.

This is what you’ve been doing. Stop before I pull my eyes out please. Ty.

Nobody is forcing you to read it. That’s all on you.

Sure it is. Its very stable. Its static and unchanging.

lol good point. But I meant their personal lives, do they have to worry about sudden negative changes that threaten their basic livelihood?

Universal critical education is the same. It might have econmonic value but yet again it might not. It depends on what is needed in the econmony. For example there may be no need for any critical thinkers in an econmony, but there might be a shortage of ditch diggers

Well first, not all education is so one can get a job. Learning for learning’s sake is a-ok w me too

But on the practical side; critical thinking will serve even a ditch digger well. The best worker’s I have known were very critical thinkers. A critical thinker is likely to find any flaws in ditch digging, and further facilitate productivity.

When it could very well lead to a less proserous society. We refrain from saying there should be X amount of education or people should be paid this way.

Because we have no way of knowing if it is true or not.

All evidence seems to suggest that education is good for both people and markets. And this is just regular acedemic education, not even talking about one focused in critical thinking skills. There is no way for me to know it if is true or not, but it has worked so far. So it seems practical, and it is morally right to me. I have yet to see any evidence for why I should not push for this to become a part of people’s thinking.