A dilemma for Christian anarchists

[jdcoffey]

@Fox McCloud

the problem with his links, though, is it still puports that the translation “higher powers” or “governing authorities” is correct; which isn’t not…again, the word that is translated to “powers” is the Greek word exousia which means the power of choice, the ability to do as one pleases, or literally, liberty.

Perhaps I’m being obtuse, but substituting “liberty” or “power of choice” for “authorities” doesn’t seem to make sense in the context of the scripture. I don’t want to waste your time, but perhaps you have a link to either something you’ve written before or an argument made by someone else that supports your position?

I’m open to your opinion, I just need a more convincing argument in order to accept it.

[Fox_McCloud]

@jdcoffey

@Fox McCloud

the problem with his links, though, is it still puports that the translation “higher powers” or “governing authorities” is correct; which isn’t not…again, the word that is translated to “powers” is the Greek word exousia which means the power of choice, the ability to do as one pleases, or literally, liberty.

Perhaps I’m being obtuse, but substituting “liberty” or “power of choice” for “authorities” doesn’t seem to make sense in the context of the scripture. I don’t want to waste your time, but perhaps you have a link to either something you’ve written before or an argument made by someone else that supports your position?

I’m open to your opinion, I just need a more convincing argument in order to accept it.

no problem:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Gregory/williams100.htm

[Paul]

@Fox McCloud

You se,e the term “powers” is not correct; the Greek word there is actually "

exousia" which does not translate to “powers”, but rather “Freedom” or “power to choose”

Rubbish. Power/authority is a good translation.

[Paul]

@Fox McCloud

the problem with his links, though, is it still puports that the translation “higher powers” or “governing authorities” is correct; which isn’t not…again, the word that is translated to “powers” is the Greek word exousia which means the power of choice, the ability to do as one pleases, or literally, liberty.

Liddell-Scott says:

ἐξουσία, ἡ, (ἔξεστι) power, means, authority to do a thing, c. inf., χαίρειν καὶ νοσεῖν ἐξ. πάρεστι Soph. Fr. 109; ἐξ. ἐστί μοι, c. inf., Antipho. 112. 13, Thuc. 7. 12; ἐξουσίαν διδόναι, ποιεῖν to give authority or power to do …, Plat. Symp. 182 E, Crito 51 D, etc.; opp. to ἐξ. ἔχειν, λαμβάνειν, etc., Andoc. 23. 14, Xen. Mem. 2. 6, 24, etc.; τῇ τῆς εἰρήνης ἐξ. with the freedom permitted by peace, Dem. 240. 23; ἐξ. ἔχειν θανάτου power of life and death, Arist. Fr. 374; but, c. gen. objecti, ἐξ. τινός power over, licence in a thing, τοῦ λέγειν Plat. Gorg. 461 E; ἐν μεγάλῃ ἐξ. τοῦ ἀδικεῖν Ib. 526 A, cf. Rep. 554 C; περί τινος Id. Legg. 936 A; κατὰ τὴν οὐκ ἐξ. τῆς ἀγωνίσεως from want of qualification for …, Thuc. 5. 50. 2. licence, arrogance, Dem. 559. 24, cf. 403. 26; ἡ ἄγαν ἐξ. Id. 428. 22. II. absol. power, authority, might, as opp. to right, Eur. Fr. 778, Thuc. 1. 38, cf. 3. 45. 2. an office, magistracy, Lat. postestas, Plat. Alc. 1. 135 B; οἱ ἐν ταῖς ἐξουσίαις in Arist. Eth. N. 1. 5, 3; οἱ ἐν ἐξουσίᾳ ὄντες Id. Rhet. 2. 6. 9; οἱ ἐπ’ ἐξουσιῶν Lxx (Dan. 3. 2); ἡ ὑπατικὴ ἐξ. the consulate, Diod. 14. 113, etc.; ἡ ταμιευτικὴ ἐξ. the quaestorship, Dion. H. 8. 77; ἡ τοῦ θαλάμου ἐξ., in the Roman empire, lordship of the bedchamber, Hdn. 1. 12. 3. as concrete, also like Lat. potestas, the body of the magistrates, Dion. H. II. 32; αἱ ἐξ. (as we say) the authorities, Plut. Philop. 17, and often in N. T.; cf. τέλος. III. like περιουσία, abundance of means, resources, ἐξουσίας ἐπίδειξις Thuc. 6. 31, cf. I. 123; ἐνδεεστέρως ἢ πρὸς τὴν ἐξ. Id. 4. 39; τῶν ἀναγκαίων ἐξ. Plat. Legg. 828 D. IV. pomp, Plut. Aemil. 34.

[Fox_McCloud]

I’d disagree: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1849

but that’s me.

In all actuality, it’s impossible for us, as humans, to comprehend the Scripture; only the Holy Spirit can instruct us as to its meaning..that goes for you, myself, and everyone else.

[amartin7889]

That is insanity.

The Bible is written by man. It can be comprehended by man.

[Fox_McCloud]

It was actually written by the Holy Spirit through men, so in all technicality, it was the Holy Spirit who’s the author of it.

[nirgrahamUK]

@Fox McCloud

Holy Spirit who’s the author of it.

I suppose asking for credible evidence will earn me a fail.

I have much to learn

[AnonLLF]

May I introduce you to http://libertarianchristians.com/ run by a very nice guy called Norman.

Some articles that may interest you.

http://libertarianchristians.com/2008/11/28/new-testament-theology-2/ - about paul’s teachings on the state.

http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesis/summary01.htm#Controversial - you may also find some of these links useful.

@jdcoffey

I’m a Christian and currently a minarchist, but I suspect I may be an anarchist soon once I continue to follow my beliefs to their logical conclusion.

I believe taxation by the state is theft because those who pay have not given their consent and have no choice whether or not to pay. However, I came across this verse in the Bible a few days ago and it’s caused me real problems. I’m hoping that someone on these forums has either studied this issue before or can point me to an analysis that will help.

The following passage is from Romans:

¹Let every person^(A) be subject to the governing authorities. For^(B) there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. ²Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. ³For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you^(C) will receive his approval, ⁴for^(D) he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God,^(E) an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. ⁵Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also^(F) for the sake of conscience. ⁶For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. ^7(G) Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

This passage seems to explicitly state that resisting government is an act of resistance against God himself. It’s a commandmant for paying taxes and for being “in subjection” to the government.

I’m not a christian or religious but I can answer from a place of logic.

Surely the commandment against theft comes before this passage.

this passage came from Paul not Jeus so is not authoritive in the same way jesus’s sayings are.

Elsewhere it’s written jesus said “my Kingdom is not of this world”. Also remember that satan offered Jesus his kingdoms in this world implying he controls them.