Actual Logical Proof of Natural Law

Do you believe that a God must exist in order to ‘bridge the gap’ between the comprehensible world and the incomprehensible world? If you do believe that, why?

I will continue to use the term “morality” in order to allow me to explain my arguments.

Is the greatest possible being that “can possibly be conceived” different than simply “the greatest possible being”?

If I infallibly know that event X will occur at time Y, then that implies that that event is determined to occur at time Y. If that event does not occur at time Y, then that implies that my knowledge was fallible.

If “God cannot impute a contradictory moral code because doing so is inconsistent with his nature”, then that implies a limitation of potency and therefore non-omnipotence.

The moral code of the human mind includes a revulsion toward murder. However, it is entirely possible to revolt against such nature and murder some one. And, similarly, it would be entirely possible to impute to a creation of ours an immoral-to-us moral code.

And, how did the “love your neighbor as you love yourself” code originate? And, why is it considered “natural law” when the NAP is not? And, why is theistic peaceful coexistence somehow different than atheistic peaceful coexistence? Are you a polylogist?

No such proof exists. However, I am sure that you understand that by now.

That is very true, however, I do not attempt to prove to others I am not dreaming right now.

You’ve come up with a more efficient demolition of natural law “proof” than I ever could: insofar as natural law theorists make extremely strong logical claims, they can expect extreme logical skepticism in response.

You claim that God is omnipresent. And, now, you claim that he exists outside spacetime. If you do not exist somewhere, then you do not exist everywhere. Therefore, those two statements are clearly contradictory.

AJ, do you allow yourself to know things that are unproven or unprovable, or not?

Of course, in the sense that I work with what I observe - all the while realizing, for instance, that it could all be a dream. Still, even in a dream, if someone tried to say they’ve “proven” a statement, I’d still ask to see the proof.

And if what they were trying to prove was natural law, I would say to them, “Why do you need to try to prove that? Haven’t you realized this could all be a dream? All you need to do is persuade. If you purport to logically prove something with no assumptions, you open yourself up unnecessary criticism of the whole package deal of NAP, property rights, and libertarian concepts themselves (it would after all be nice to get rid of the State, even if only the State in this dreamworld so we can better enjoy it).”

has anyone ever shown you an actual proof for any statement they made which you felt was controversial before you had seen the proof? im curious what it was?

you couldnt prove that ‘we can better enjoy it’ by your definition of prove.

No. It is impossible to do X before you do X.

feeling someones conclusive statement was controversial/doubtful before you are presented with that persons proof which justified the statements truth , and therefore disabused you of the notion that it was possibly false, is not impossible on the praxeological grounds you are invoking, I Ryan.

The infinite series 1/n^2 converges to a finite number.

Correct, but it wasn’t meant to be a propositional statement, but merely a statement of persuasion, as in, “Hey, y’know - given the political positions we both apparently hold - don’t you think we can better enjoy this dreamworld if we get rid of the State?” Statements of persuasion can be very useful, such as the opening of the Declaration of Independence. ← Yes, this sentence is also a statement of persuasion.

i do agree that i would be satisfied with effective persuasions that led to libertarian conclusions, i wouldnt weep over a ‘lack of proofing’

Looks like we’re in fundamental agreement then. In fact, “I wouldn’t weep over a lack of proofing” is a concise statement of my whole point: some theorists have apparently “wept” over the lack of proofing, and believed they needed to do something about it, but they need not have (and I suggest - but do not say I can prove - that they must fail at it if they continue to try, with harmful results because such failure opens them to needless additional criticism).

If God is omnipresent then he exists everywhere. Outside of spacetime as well as inside spacetime.

Does anyone classify the ‘non-aggression principle’ as an ‘axiom’? We will denote an ‘axiom’ as a ‘necessary truth’. How you define a ‘necessary truth’ does not matter. I just want to know why do you allow your ‘conception’ of ‘truth’ to be compatible with ‘ethics’.

i guess not in the sense of ‘necessary truth’ you are using. i suppose that somewhat justifies the choice of label natural law, as it resembles natural science which is contingent but discoverable through assuming realism and proceeding with a mix of critical deduction and induction…

its not necessarily true that in any possible universe the law of entropy must hold, that is to say, it is not necessarily true that the law of entropy holds. but we can discover that we are in a universe for which it does hold. in which case it is true, even though not by necessity. of course, that is with necessity being understood in the strictest possible sense

what if i define it to mean ‘false’ would that matter?

I guess ‘morality’, in the descriptive sense, may have a ‘truth’ value as in the physical laws of the universe. For example, it is true that humans generally feel empathy for one another, avoid murder, and cooperate with one another. One may challenge this claim by arguing that not all humans feel empathy and cooperate, but the physical laws of the universe also behave in this same way. For example, if you classify the ‘law of natural selection’ as a physical law, it does not apply to all living organisms at all times. The law of natural selection states that organisms that successfully survive and reproduce will more likely pass on its genes to its successive generations. However, earth’s climate may change, which might decrease the fitness of an organism’s successors.

Not all physical laws apply correctly to all situations. Same thing with human’s genetic composition. Each human has a different genetic composition. With different genes, not all humans may have the genes which force them to feel empathy for others. Therefore, we cannot possibly identify a ‘standardized’ set of hardwired ‘moral’ drives (such as empathy and remorse) within all humans. Not all humans feel empathy. Not all humans feel remorse.

We have previously discussed that the laws of logic can have two different senses: the normative sense and the descriptive sense. We have just shown the same thing with ‘morality’.

No it does not. I will go as far in rejecting the ‘cognitivist/non-cognitivist’ dichotomy itself.

First, we will define our terms: ‘Ethical cognitivists’ claim that ethical sentences express propositions. ‘Ethical non-cognitivists’ claim that ethical sentences do not express propositions.

The concepts of ‘true’ and ‘false’ is found in mathematics. However, the notions of ‘truth’ and ‘false’ do not ‘exist out-there’ as ‘mind-independent’ entities in ‘objective reality’. For example, mathematical axioms are ‘true’ only by definition. So the notions of ‘true’ and ‘false’ can exist only by definition.

Just like in mathematics, you can define ethical sentences as either ‘true’ or ‘false’. Even though ethical sentences may not be intrinsically ‘true’ or ‘false’, you can define them as either ‘true’ or ‘false’.

We have proven that ‘ethical cognitivists’ merely have a differenent definition of ‘truth’ than the ‘ethical non-cognitivists’. They define ‘truth’ broader than how the ‘non-cognitivists’ do.

Some may dispute the above claim because they cite that Kantian ethics and Molyneuvian ethics (which are ‘cognitivist’) are different from the ‘non-cognitivist’ ethical theories. However, even though those two ethical systems belong to ‘ethical cognitivism’, it still does not suggest that ‘ethical cognitivism’ necessarily endorses any concepts from Kantian ethics or Molyneuvian’s UPB. ‘Ethical cognitivists’ does not necessarily endorse ‘ethical apriorism’ or reject Hume’s moral sense theory. Even ‘ethical subjectivism’ can be ‘cognitivist’! The difference between ‘cognitivism’ and ‘non-cognitivism’ is merely based on the definitions of ‘truth’. All other associations of the terms ‘cognitivism’ and ‘non-cognitivism’ are irrelevant to their definitions.

So the difference between ‘cognitivism’ and ‘non-cognitivism’ is purely based on the different definitions of ‘truth’. The ‘cognitivists’ merely have a broader definition of ‘truth’ than the ‘non-cognitivists’.

One may choose to be a ‘cognitivist’ by merely expanding one’s definition of ‘truth’. One may choose to be a ‘non-cognitivist’ by defining ‘truth’ less broadly to exclude ethical sentences. Neither school of ethics is ‘more correct’ than the other. That merely depends on the definition of ‘truth’.

This is why I reject the ‘cognitivist/non-cognitivist’ dichotomy.

It was an additional question which was suppose to inspire introspection considering we are trying to establish logical proof. If you cannot sustain a basis for your own logical deduction [ thinking that you are really in a dream land ] then asking for logical proof of a system beyond your own introspection seems like a useless task.

I enjoy talking about natural rights because everyone gets so bothered with economics and I’m not an economist and truly I think skepticism is healthy. It is good to ask question because that tests basic theories [ like I said your skepticism is beneifical in small degrees ] however, what I object to is extreme skepticism where one questions everything to the point of self-refutation.

And when skeptics trot out extreme sceptical nonsense, they can expect the converse in response. See how that works? It isn’t a “demolition”. Not even close. It’s a barrel of laughs.

A note regarding “extreme skepticism”…

It would be one thing if people were asserting the existence of something for which there was clear evidence, and we were insisting on perfect proof beyond that evidence.

But with objective natural rights that derive “ought” from “is”, people are asserting something which may not even make logical sense, let alone be actually true.

Bringing what is potentially complete incoherence into the light of day is not extreme skepticism.