Agorism activity

Economics Political Theory
81

I thought sapping resources from the State and using them to trade into the Agora / counter-economy was one of the basic points?

It could be argued that diverting resources from the pink market in order to better facilitate trade between those associated in the black & grey markets can be valuable, especially with getting those who purley operate in and/or only know about the pink market (say, average joe?), as they might see only operating with the Agora in the black & grey markets as a limitation on being able to get the requirements to meet a decent living standard.

While it could be argued that eventually, those markets would grow to be able to better meet Average Joe’s demands, where the pink market typically meets the, Average Joe may not want to hear this; he probably wouldn’t like the (seemingly silly to some non-agorists or mainstream political types) philisophical limitation of not being able to go to a local Rite-Aid, buy “x” amount of stuff, and be able to trade it with a buddy who happens to be Agorist, for “x” amount of another product that is cheaper via Agora means, simply because the method of him getting the goods he needed to trade with, weren’t ideologically “pure”.

Besides, how feasible would be for Agorists to purley rely on self-reliance to generate goods for trade in their counter-economy activity, when could also divert goods & resources from the pink market incognito? I would think both methods, of not relying on the pink market (Do It Yourself, or, Create It Yourself, if you will) & diverting resources from the pink market, would be used, rather than either or.

I vaugley remember something like this being addressed in a thread before, but I’m not sure when this was.

Nuclear power may be a problem, but I hardly see nuclear power becoming viable (meaning people will be comfortable to live near a nuclear reactor that can meltdown their town, regardless of the unwarranted fear due to increases in technology & saftey protocols) for another 25 to 50 years.

As for “ethanol from lawn clippings”, that may be sooner than some think:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/9/story.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10523758

82

Yeah, but if you support the state by buying its monopoly goods then you aren’t sapping resources away from them but are only making them stronger as your counter-economy grows and needs more of what only the state provides like the gasoline example. In most of the developing countries I’ve (n)ever been to the local state representatives were preadators of convience where they would only take what they could get away with through bribes while the power elite grew rich from the rent seeking on the key industries they controlled and had a monopoly over.

You want to kill the state you have to bust the monopolies.

83

Busting monopolies goes without saying, and I sort of see what you mean by supporting the pink market “in any way” (more or less) can be a counter towards Agora progress, which was why I thought it would be silly if “sapping” the pink market was the only strategy proposed, which to my knowledge, it wasn’t.

I would’ve written it if I had known first hand (with the amount of books I try to read, I often end up forgetting most and only skimmingg the first few chapters of some…), but could any Agorists step-up & elaborate?

AC, how would you bust the monopolies?

84

I would push the button…

85

I just wanted a yes or no answer. I get sick of going off topic. Once I’m done with this, you can bring it back up and then I will read it, whatever it was.

My point about Southern Italy was that many, in fact I’d go out on a limb and say most, Italians do not pay taxes and have little to no involvement with the national government. In the late 90’s, for example, as a national institution the GDP% in the underground economy took up nearly a third of the economy’s GDP. Now, since the statistics characterize the entire economy, I will go out on a limb and say that for Southern Italy alone, the GDP% actually ranks much higher in the Mezzogiorno.

With an anecdotal observation from my family still in the region, nearly 3/4’s of the people I can count do not pay taxes, do not vote, and hold occupations outside of the pink market in Italy.

This is a large percentage of people. I recommend you step outside of your Anglo-Saxon box and realize that people can and do propser - not just survive - outside of the government’s eyes.

86

Coward apparently doesn’t realize that Agorism doesn’t propose people become completely counter-economic by the next day.

Please, Coward, read SEK3’s NLM, particularly chapter IV and V.

87

That’s not an answer. Specify through what means you would like to do it. There is no literal button.

88

I do…

What I originally presented as constructive criticism you take for disapproval methinks.

I was just wondering how it would be possible to overcome this government monopoly barrier.

89

Well, I would think that you already know the answer to such a question: through competition. Competition and monopoly are fundamentally opposed in principle.

90

I would push the figurative button?

I personally think that the monopolies will bust themselves in the crack-up bust that will be coming in the next 5-10 years as the governments of the world will finally expend all the saved capital that they can get their hands on through hook and crook. I don’t think that anyone, including the most hardened statist, believes that the current levels of government expenditure are sustainable for too much longer so we will find ourselves in a situation which Rothbard describes in the link I posted where we will have a true chance to snatch Liberty out of the dustbin of history and live it once more.

What we need is to assemble the Vanguard of Liberty from amongst the many fighting factions and get the knowledge of the true causes of the problems out to the people so the State can no longer point fingers at ‘speculators’ and ‘hoarders’ and when the real crisis hits we can all collectively push the button.

91

I agree. I wonder if all of the thousands of Agorists would be willing to commit to such a venture for 6 months.

92

Sounds like you are confusing all counter-economic activity with Agorism. You’re wrong. If the objective of the counter-economic behavior is not to collapse the state, then it is not Agorism. It’s just plain old grey and black market activity.

93

Agorists can not answer a very simple question with a practical example. I will state the question again. What activity does an agorist do with regard to the counter-economy that undermines the state that the person who is just engaging in what you agorists would call only counter-economic avtivity does not do?

This to me seems the whole foundation of agorism and not one person can provide a simple example of why it is different. I will provide the example again. Two farmers A and B conduct all activity in the black market. Farmer A does so because he makes more money. Farmer B does so because he claims to be a libertarian. Why do the actions of Farmer B undermine the state and the actions of Farmer A do not?

Is there any agorist that can answer that fundamental question?

94

According to your figures then the governement of Italy should have already succombed to the huge agorist population in Italy. Why has this not occurred?

95

What actions does an agorist do that a person just operating as a counter-economist does not do? Provide an example of what you are suggesting is happening is all I am asking for.

How does psychology effect the actual transaction? If you buy something in the black market does it undermine the state more because you are libertarian?

Your refusal to name any area no matter how large as being an agorist hotspot is absurd. Do you think saying Southern California is a hotspot of agorism is giving something away? Obviously you can not name any area because the reality is there is no place that agorists are having any impact on the state.

What market are you referring too? The total economic output of the country? The US GDP is about 14 Trillion dollars so that would mean once the agorists have developed about a 4 Trillion dollar underground economy the state will collapse. How big is the current agorist economic output, approximately?

Do you think that was a result of ideology? Why have they not removed the Crown from the rest of Ireland then?

96

Because the population of Italia is not Agorist - it is counter-economist.

97

First, an Agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught and to bring others into his line of work. This is not so for a mere counter-economist. Not only may he not have much incentive, but he may have disincentive from competition.

Second, an Agorist talks with other Agorists about removing threats and keeping secrets. Counter-economists largely work on their own.

Third, an Agorist possesses a goal to work for. Counter-economists largely do not. They want to make their booty and live their lives back in the pink economy. Agorists want to remove themselves completely from teh pink economy and move towards doing that.

A recent development in an area around Milwaukee has occurred so that some Agorists are now working together to secure posts for trade and advertisement. This does not occur for counter-economists because they are largely on their own and do not have the incentive to group with others to promote ideals past making money from a single source of revenue.

Yes, because you are putting those profits to more than just paying off rent. It isn’t the physical transaction, it’s what occurs before and after.

If you say so. I’m still not giving away any locations.

Aggregate markets.

The second part could be used for money laundering cases, plus, I do not know total averages for any area outside of my own.

Yes, I do.

Because the ideology died down when Irish got at least some portion of completely seceeded land.

98

An agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught, you mean more than a big time Colombian drug dealer who might be facing the death penalty? That makes no sense at all.

There are counter-ecomomic groups running multi-billion dollar operations and employing thousands of people. They own buildings, aircraft, ships just like any multi-billion dollar corporation. They are hardly working on their own.

This does not explain why an agorist conducting counter-economic activity undermines the state and others doing the same activity do not. What I would like you or any other agorist to do is follow one transaction all the way through and explain what the agorist is doing different. It should not be as hard as you are making it.

A recent development in the world exists just like this and it’s called craigslist and it had nothing to do with the philosophy of agorism.

Please explicitly state what market you are refferring too.

99

Of course it does. Just as Muslim freedom fighters find strength in their religion and incentives, so to do Agorists. So, the Colombian druglord possesses extra incentive not to fail, for his failure will not just mean individual faulter, it will mean ideological faulter.

Someone that belongs to something bigger than himself will have extra incentive not to fail. Why do children feel such a need to please their parents even after their out of the house? They could please any other person and the physical repercussions would be, at first, rather similar. Why do children feel that keeping their parents prideful is important?

No, they are, because they have no ideology to connect with eachother. Their motive is pure profit. They will sell one another out because their importance is only to themselves.

Of course it does. How doesn’t it? You don’t think having a goal increases the effectiveness and incentives to succeed? Why do people with excellent memories still make to-do lists then?

An Agorist is going to use his profits to continue Agorist work. He will trade primarily with Agorists and use his profits to increase the scope and effectiveness of the Agorist movement. This perpetuates the growth of the Agorist movement thus enveloping more soldiers against the state. Using their profit to continue to counter-act the state, Agorists distinguish themselves from Counter-Economists who merely want to make money and re-enter the pink market.

This of course does not mention the increased potency of Agorists compared to counter-economists.

Craigslist is open and pink without any ideology attached.

What these Agorists are doing is counter-economic and black.

You’re really grasping on straws now.

I did, Jimmy.

100

Nicky, you should give it up. The “Jim Jones” edits are weak, and you have absolutely no argument to defend yourself with. All you have managed to do is dig the hole deeper and deeper.