Anarcho-Capitalism Books

Thats your assumption, people seem to have an awful habit of remembering things however. Which is awfully inconvenient for your argument. Other then that there is no structure to society. No great man got up and said “We need super markets to provide milk! And Discount tire stores to fix cars!” Oh wait they did…, and they were entrepreneurs on the market.

You act as if a great deal of society isn’t already operating on the market. Perhaps you forgot. What I mean is, you act as if there is some formal social structure and that it would radically change over night in the absence of the state. You act as if people would stop going to the tire store to buy tires, and stop going to the supermarket to buy milk. Need I remind you that the only successful, resource friendly, wealth generating, poverty reducing, quality of living raising section of our society is the market itself. In the absence of the state the non-bankrupt part would have to pickup the pieces and go from there yes(your saying this not me), but the only reason why there would be pieces to pickup is specifically because there was a big part that went bankrupt in the first place, the state.

Other then that your fear that things would radically change might be a little shortsided. If you took a look at our GDP, and look at Government spending in GDP, you will see somewhere around %30-40. So when it all collapses all you ahve to worry about repairing is that 30-40% that cannot sustain itself. The market isn’t going anywhere. People won’t magically stop needing their hair cut, or shoes puchased.

The only other downside to this would be the dismantling of the monetary unit, that again sadly is the fault of your way of doing things, not the markets.

Ofcoarse it’s impossible. You keep acting like we’re predicting the future. We are not, there is a reason why it’s called "Speculation, forcasting, and guessing.

You forget two things. It will be the state that dismantles itself, not angry mobs of ancaps. You need to go back and re-read my previous post, especially the part about DD5’s quote.

Secondly, you act as if when the state crashes people will suddenly forget how to go to the store to buy milk. As if they will some how click and become enraged with confusion and walk down their street killing all their neighbors, instead of simply going to the store and buying milk. It’s akin to Zombie’s coming out of the ground because government doesn’t exist. It really is a boogy man tall tale.

What happens will be unknown and what level of unrest is also unknown, but assuming money can rebound in some other form the market won’t go anywhere.

Now, once the state crashes will there be termoil? Ofcoarse, for the reasons DD5 stated above. Please go back and re-read my previous post as it addresses all of this.

I still want to know why he thinks his way is the correct way, and why his way should be forced on to those who disagree. First his argument was an appeal to tradition, now he’s defending tradition saying it’s trial & error(Market like). Why won’t he let it trial & error on the market? What fear does he have if it’s so elite?

You just assume the only measure of the worthiness of a custom is the market test. We don’t.

Any of those, depending on the nature and scope of the change you advocate.

You just assume the only measure of the worthiness of a custom is the market test. We don’t.

What other type of test are you suggesting? Statism is a huge market success. People never conceived of any alternative to government and now that democracy is failing, they are investigating alternatives. It’s kind of like how people just used to read paper books because the iPad, Kindle, etc. wasn’t out yet.

Anyhow, this topic is an-cap books and I was asked in private to suggest some more. I think that reading Mises’ Human Action is most important, even though he wasn’t an anarchist and reading Rothbard is not all that important. It really depends on what your aims are though and a lot of important works are shorter. One specifically related to what the statists are moaning about in this thread would be Hasnas’ The Obviousness of Anarchy.

I would ask how well it serves in the long run the interests of the people of the society or community in question.

Not an assumption but rather is shown to be apodictically true. I can show on paper, via praxeology for these reasons. You cannot and instead your only defense of democracy is a tiresome appeal to tradition. You and others like you advocate a test where systems and methods, whether good or bad, become extremely difficult if not impossible to remove, both in the short and in the long run. In short there is no test process in democracy. States carry on perpetuated errors for generations and make little attempt of even fixing the existing problems they have. They have no economic reason to improve. If anyone is in a position to defend themselves it’s the advocates of democracy, not the other way around.

But in short, your right, I believe the market is the most responsive and attentive method at delivering satisfaction to consumers, both in the short and in the long run. You believe in a system where methods come into existence but are not subject to the scrutiny of the ones they serve.

Thanks captain obvious.

You pretend as if someone out there has such amazing forsight to be able to answer this. If the democracy was capable of accomplishing this than the last 100 years of repeated errors would likely have not occured. Amazing that one of your reasons for supporting democracy is that you believe it will better support the interests of society in the future. But who is the judge of what the interests of society are? You? And why has the state perpetually screwed things up since it’s existence if it’s goal is allegedly to keep the interest of society in mind. How does it know what the interests of society are? How does it know when it’s not serving the interest of society?

I would ask how well it serves in the long run the interests of the people of the society or community in question.

How is this any different than the “market test”? Oh right, you are incapable of having an honest discussion or admitting that you are wrong.

filc makes a great point:

States carry on perpetuated errors for generations and make little attempt of even fixing the existing problems they have. They have no economic reason to improve.

I know that you guys like to lie about Hoppe’s comparison of monarchy and democracy, saying that we advocate feudalism and ignoring the actual argument for an anarchic natural order, but his analysis is spot on.

From here:

One of the deductions that Hans-Herman Hoppe is known for is his conclusion that democracy differs from monarchy in the area of responsibility-continuity. As he elaborates in Democracy: The God That Failed, democracies are run by temporary custodians, who must maximize their advantage in a short-term manner because their position is only temporary. There is no incentive, beyond an “idealism” that is much easier to bully-pulpit than to seriously implement, to make permanent improvements to the nation’s economy. Such incentives that are subject to the influence of promoting a legacy (favorable mention in the history books) do not dovetail with economic improvements. They do dovetail with winning the respect, or awe, of the writers of the history books, which itself is subject to the credibilities of the general public. Thus, there is no logical connection between democracy and economic growth, even if there seems to be in the short term. Such short-term incentives, though, are confined to gaining credit for any growth trend, or assigning blame for any contraction trend, in whatever way is most expedient for gaining, or keeping, elected office.

Interestingly enough, democracy can coexist with a somewhat free and growing market, although not to the extent that the old democrats assumed. The trusteeship nature of democracy does apply to war, as Joseph Schumpeter discussed in the chapter “Imperialism As a Catch Phrase” in Imperialism and Social Classes. Just as the democratic politician has no incentive to add permanent improvements to a nation’s economy, so it is that a democratic politician has no incentive to launch, intentionally, a long-term war, one where the victory will not come until he or she is either retired or dead. This is the root of the notion that democracy and war are mutually exclusive. Note, though, that it says nothing about short-term wars, ones that can be declared, prosecuted, and “won” within the timeframe of a single career as political head honcho. The typical war fought by the United States – and there have been many of them – is prosecuted according to this plan. In terms of time, the longest “hot” war ever fought by the U.S. military has been the Vietnam War, which lasted approximately ten years. Both Presidents that were Commanders-in-Chief during its full prosecution left office in disgrace, essentially for hypocrisy. This provides, for the United States specifically, a lesson for any future President: long, drawn-out wars, ones that get stuck in the “Big Muddy,” entail political suicide. The incentive for, and consequent expectation of, quick victory is evidently self-reinforcing. So, a bias towards high time preference in politics does have its advantages, as the obvious tendency of national “statesmen” to treat the nation’s goods and people as a War Treasury is limited by the short-term orientation of democratic politics.

Given the obvious disadvantages of a high-time-preference State, though, there does emerge a kind of tension, or clash, between economic maximization and maximization of political advantage. Economic growth under capitalism does rest upon capital accumulation, which requires general habituation to low time preferences. This habituation, though, is foreign to democracy. Thus, capitalists and democrats have a tendency to look askance upon each other. The grand compromise “democratic capitalism” tends to rest upon capitalists being amenable to politicians taking credit for the capitalists’ own accumulation, or to politicians ascribing credit for it to “the people” – the voters. When the latter course is taken, capitalist democracy enjoys a kind of stability, because the “people” being given credit do tend to be low-time-preference in habits. In this sense, the people’s flattery, although it paints with too broad a brush, is roughly accurate in a democracy with a low-time-preference culture.

Unfortunately, this coexistence is not a stable one. One of the disturbing conditions of such an arrangement is the rise of a class that is more capitalistically inclined than the general populace. This development does occur from time to time when a generally unrecognized competitive advantage in cultivating a low time preference arises, because the advantages of doing so are subtle, and are not easily assimilated. They are generally scoffed at during times when the advantage is generally unperceived. An unintended consequence of that competitive advantage emerging, though, is that it makes “the people’s flattery” more and more unrealistic. The politicians, who credit “the people” for the extent of capitalistic development in a nation in those times, appear as if they were assigning the name of the “people” to a low-time-preference elite. This practice, although rooted in capitalist democracy, appears undemocratic, and may very well be so at the time it is seen through. Thus, “inequality of wealth” is not a threat to capitalist democracy per se, but sustained inequality of time preference is.

It should therefore be of little surprise that the economics of Keynes, with its borrower-centric bias, took the democracies of the world by storm in his time. Keynesian politics does show a certain shrewdness in times when inequality of time preferences is jarring, as it ascribes credit for “economic growth” to the consumer, the borrower, and of course the government itself. (The only category that the low-time-preference sort can fit into is exporter.) Lord Keynes spoke very well to the biases of his time, even if, in so doing, he inclined democratic politicians to take credit for economic growth themselves, rather than discouraging them from doing so. It is in this way that a Keynesian democracy is inclined towards corporatism. Keynesian political economy takes hold during times when the high-time-preference class has an opportunity to wreak revenge (for being taken for granted) through democratic politics, at the long-term cost of hobbling the economy.

As democratic politicians grow in influence, so does the high-time-preference lifestyle gain in prestige. Any child raised to be obedient to the State, in such a democracy, will conclude that high-time-preference behavior is good. Don’t the best statesmen act short term? Don’t they demand results quickly? Don’t the best of them get results quickly? Don’t they brag about the generosity of a deficit-running government, and merely pay lip service to the idea of surpluses? Aren’t they somewhat fast and loose with respect to mere promises? If the electorate doesn’t mind that, why shouldn’t Our Leaders be that way? They serve the people, don’t they?

Thus, in a time of statolatry in a democracy, the high-time-preference example set by the political class results in high-time-preference behavior amongst the obedient young. They have indeed followed the example of their “betters” in this regard.

There are equilibrating trends in politics as well as economics. One means by which the low-time-preference sort can limit the resultant hobbling of the economy, as well as recurrent depredations of it, is to promote the idea that anyone living the high-time-preference lifestyle is a “winner” in some way. This makes the resultant inequalities of wealth less aggravating to the electorate.

Nevertheless, it tends to cleave incentives for social success apart from incentives for economic success. In addition, it fails to explain why low-time-preference people gain wealth and influence in everyday life. This latter clash tends to show up in the culture, as a supply of movies, etc., arises to satisfy the demand for explaining it. The typical plot line that fills this demand, in American culture, includes the wicked moneylenders, the wicked businessmen, or the wicked corporations that seem destined to enslave us all. This last American myth reconciles the clash between success in life and following behavioral cues from the political leadership, by encouraging the notion that the wicked corporation “forces” people to act in a low-time-preference manner.

The end result, in a statolatized democracy, is a kind of elitism developing, one where “overnight successes” compose the new elite. Anyone who succeeds, or who appears to have succeeded, in a high-time-preference manner, becomes a folk hero. Such people reinforce the popular stereotype of “Instant Wealth,” which reconciles the popular desire for worldly success with popular deference to politicians. These ostensibly favored few, mostly celebrities, serve an important function in a statolatized democracy, as they show that it is possible to “have it all” in a clash-ridden democratic polity. (No need to wonder why they end up with political influence.) This reassures the electorate, who would otherwise have qualms about an existent clash between political success and economic success in a democracy where government is looked up to.

There’s only one way out of such a dilemma, for those who seek economic success in a democracy: rehabilitation of low time preference habits in the general populace. Since deference towards politicians inculcates the habits of high time preference, the restoration of general respect for the low-time-preference mode of life requires putting an end to the practice of revering politicians. They have to be seen as serviceable, and the ones who are good at it seen as rating a kind of cold esteem.

It is truly amazing how in the course of argument, alleged freedom advocates, but also compromisers of total freedom, must always resort to practically Marxist type argumentation for the defense of their compromises.

So not believing in Rothbard or natural rights or certain economics = not believing in total freedom?

I can’t see anything inherently Marxist about that at all, honestly.

This is good. Non-libertarian, empirical/prudential.

Go on then. Lay out your deduction.

Human Action by Ludwig von Mises. You should spend more time reading this and less arguing from a point of ignorance scineram. I take it that you concede that there is no other form of a test and you were just twisting words. It is an a priori fact that when a voluntary transaction occurs both parties see the exchange as beneficial to themselves. That a plurality adopts a certain custom does not prove a custom “correct”. Cooperation is not a zero-sum game. That we call a pattern of action a “custom”, by definition, we can conclude that those participating see the custom as beneficial.

I read this last night, If a Pure Market Economy is so Good, Why Doesn’t It Exist? The Importance of Changing Preferences versus Incentives in Social Change by Stringham and Hummel. Its pretty good and again relevant to this debate. They seemed to just outline Cowen’s objections without responding directly in section 2 or 3 (I forget). He really needed to be taken to task on those propositions. Maybe I will do a write up on it after my weekend vacation.

Ex ante, and they can be mistaken. And this only includes the two parties.

You are completely forgetting that the majority of knowledge in society is tacit, and built around a concrete environment in space and time. At that same time, you are assuming that individuals have rational access to most of the knowledge in society, and that they can easily access it once the environment changes, but, as we know, because the knowledge is tacit, it simply cannot be rationally altered to fit a new environment. Furthermore, you are providing a strawman against the tacit knowledge argument because you obviously don’t realize what tacit knowledge is (otherwise you wouldn’t have tried to draw a parallel between a supermarket providing milk and the tacit knowledge that an institutional structure provides), and its importance to the operation of humanity.

Or that bankrupt party can hire a mercenary company to extract enough tribute from their community that it pays off their debts. You are assuming that human nature will change with anarcho-capitalism here, and that individuals will not try to resort to violence to get their will. But as Milton Friedman has pointed out, human history is nothing but a catalogue of counterexamples to the thought that once non violent exchange emerges, that individuals will limit themselves to it.

Or better yet, gambling society on your fantasies. The only reason why speculation is beneficial is that it is done on a small scale, but the speculation you talk about is, by its very definition, an all-in gamble.

At that same time, this speculation, forecasting, and guessing yields absolutely no knowledge that is epistemologically sound, so I am correct when I call the results mere fantasies.

And why would not an anarcho-capitalist faction not try to dismantle the state? If they don’t, anarcho-capitalism is no better than Marxism, proclaiming that it is a priori that the state will dismantle itself, and anarcho-capitalism will result.

This is a strawman for the reasons that I have pointed out above, you are neglecting the tacit knowledge of society.

What would be more congruent with what I have said, is that after a sudden dismantlement of the state, the financial industry, which has been based upon a institutional structure revolving around the government for generations, will simply cease operating. An economy without a functioning financial industry is a dead economy, period.

Luckilly for me, Rothbardians tend to never get my Hayekian analysis, and it is the same thing with DD5. His entire point revolves around the big evil state as boogeman of the world rather than an important institution around which individuals have coordinated their plans for not only the present, but the future (as hayekianxyz explicitly said above, yet DD5 preffered to ignore that).

I love the fact that we individuals point out that Hoppe’s analysis is wrong (many of these individuals being ex-Hoppean true believers), and that Hoppe’s suggestions would instead lead to a different result, the heretics are just called liars.

Ex ante, and they can be mistaken. And this only includes the two parties.

So what? This is only part of the whole equation leading to any one state of affairs. Ex ante, we arrive at individual pricing data. Ex post evaluation on the part of individual actors leads to further judgment on the efficiacy of prior actions. This disequilibrium motivates entrepreneurs to find better ways of employing scarce means to satisfy given ends.

Nonesense(literally). Knowledge is created, exchanged, and maintained on the market. All knowledge was manifested by individuals or small groups of individuals originally. It was market forces that spread the new knowledge around the globe. EG, the division of labor for example.

Your assessment is just quite frankly disconnected from reality, thats all. Knowledge is not behind a close door, nor does the state hold the key to this “Secret knowledge of life”. Knowledge is no more in-obtainable than the apple at the store. The state in actuality holds very little of the knowledge which allows the operation of daily life, indeed they themselves must take from the market to aquire the information they need to survive.

Now either you didn’t communicate yourself really well or you’ve fooled yourself into thinking reality is something that its not. A modern mystic as it were, disconnected from the reality that is. Your argument is quite amazing, in that it’s so overtly weak. Whats weird is that, even if your concept of knowledge were true, and we ignored markets, it still doesn’t justify a state or government heh.

Nonesense you take risks in every action, including peacefully walking down to the cafe for tea. Speculation occurs before every individual action. To state otherwise is severe lunacy, and nonesense on it’s face. Now, the state on the other hand is disconnected from the market process and cannot correctly speculate future conditions. They cannot correctly ascertain how much of what needs to be produced for whom. The state lacks economic calculation so while they also forcast, they just often do so in error.

Again your speaking nonesnse on its face, This tacit knowledge thing doesn’t carry 2 cents of weight. If your argument were actually true we’d be walking around like idiots. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of knowledge, products, and human activity is currently moved through a market(In anarchy). You need to face the inconvenient truth that everytime you purchase from a supermarket your playing anarchy.

The Grocery store model is an amazing thing, it’s a perfect example of how your whole fundamental understanding of reality is wrong. I don’t expect you to understand without doing research, I just doubt you’ll be bothered to do the actual research. What you and Scineram are really lacking is a solid understanding of what economic calculation is.

I’m not claiming a priori that the state will dismantle itself. I’m watching it happen before my very eyes. Though I am claiming that a priori the state cannot economically calculate.

As such many of their programs are un-sustainable over longer periods of time, and are not products or services which consumers would have chosen to support had they not been forced to.

Indeed I am, because it’s silly. I prefer to discuss things that are grounded here on planet earth.

Accounting was born on the market to serve market purposes. It will remain on the market with or without the state. Business’s need to assertain their performance as displayed by the eyes of society. IE, economic calculation.

If anything the process of accounting would be vastly simpler in the absence of the state. The state mandates an unecessary complex accounting system, which is just wasting resources is all.

I guess lucky for me I am not Rothbardian. Not that I understand why it’s relevant. At any rate I am not coming at you from a Rothbardian stance, and I do understand your points. I just think you misunderstand the way of things.

I have several times already in this thread, I won’t be bothered to post an entire explanation of how prices are formed on the market to you. I have to agree with ERO here, you need to read Human Action. I assume you havn’t read it, because your not even defending the actual holes in your argument. I just assume your not aware they are there. HA will point them out to you.

Indeed so what? All you prove here is that humans make mistakes. The market is a profit & loss system. That solves that problem easily. If someone makes a mistake they don’t have to do it again. You on the other hand must think that a huge social framework would better appraise, ascertain, and forecast the satisfaction of individuals better then the individuals themselves.

Such a task requires mystical abilities like reading everyone’s mind at once for example. It’s sheer folly. At any rate you missed ERO’s point, and you need to go read HA. At the very minimum the first 1/3 of the book.

With such a long post count on this forum Scineram did you expect us to say something different? Did you think silly arguments about molasses knowledge was somehow going to refute a market?

Lam, if you feel very strongly about your “Tacit Knowledge” argument I’d be happy to agree to disagree with you. I just quite frankly don’t think the argument has any legitimacy whatsoever and is not worth my time addressing.

Side note to MODS:

It seems myself and others have been discussing largely off topic for a while now. I hate to do this but I am wondering if someone can split us off into a seperate discussion.

The discussion was started by Lam, here:

https://forum.freecapitalists.org/t/anarcho-capitalism-books/12785/7

Apparently the entire human existence is just buying and selling things on the market. At least ideally. Some human nature!

That combined with the sentiment that economics is all one needs to know in order to analyze society. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

IMO it’s unfair to accuse ancaps of trying to destroy traditional institutions when the entire ideology revolves around salvaging the traditional institution of private property (acquired through purchase, gift, or Lockean homesteading). They simply see the traditional institution of the force monopoly of the state as a threat to the supposedly more important traditional institution of private property, so are perfectly logical in their desire to eliminate the former to save the latter.