Are HOAs (home owner's associations) unlibertarian?

He still gets to keep all the premiums paid up until that point under your system, premiums that turned out to be worthless.

That’s not my system, this is insurance: in every contract, you (the client) hopes that all those premiums you paid will turn up to be for nothing: you don’t want the insured event to happen, and neither does the company.

When you pay me 365 dollars for insuring your health for a year, and I cancel three months form now, I’ve actually insured your health for 90 days, and those 90 dollars are mine. I’ve bared the risk for 90 days. Had you had an accident by now, I would have had to pay. This is standard practice in insurance, not my idea.

Then you return whatever was “stolen”. The customers are still shit out of luck cause they lost a lot more than that, because of you, and under your system, they’re not entitled to anything, even if there was a contractual obligation.

Sure, you can cause other people trouble without breaking the NAP. My girlfriend can break up with me and couse my more trouble than any burglar ever will. Yet, hardship is not synonymous with punishable act. Only those acts that break the NAP are punishable. The rest are accident, and you’ll have to pay for those yourself.

That’s different. I never signed a 99.99% service level agreement with Yahoo mail or anything like that.

I know, I was just hoping to trick into saying that you still can hold yahoo accountable even if it provides for free :slight_smile:

If an accident happens on the 90th day, I’ll just return the premiums for that day, refuse to pay out because I don’t feel like it, and keep the premiums from 1 - 89.

The NAP isn’t some sort of absolute rule. We don’t know if people will pay only for arbitators that follow the NAP and only the NAP. I also disagree that breaking a contractual obligation isn’t a form of aggression/fraud, so it would fall under the NAP.

Your girlfriend on the other hand… I doubt you signed some form of agreement that she wasn’t allowed to break up with you :stuck_out_tongue:

Didn’t work :wink:

I would say this: if the contract had a line, which says something like “if you don’t keep promise, you must pay the other party X amount of money”, then such contract would be legitimate, however, nobody has a right to enforce (I mean, force to pay) such payment, in my opinion.

I believe there are some other ways make a person (who broke the contract) pay - simple bad reviews would do the job pretty good or even ostracism, if that didn’t help. :slight_smile: So the person, who broke the contract would suffer a lot more.

If an accident happens on the 90th day, I’ll just return the premiums for that day, refuse to pay out because I don’t feel like it, and keep the premiums from 1 - 89.

The agreement, written or otherwise, is that my premium becomes yours when either a) its allotted coverage time elapses without any accident or b) the accident happens. The insured sum, on the other hand, becomes mine when the insured event happens.

Hence, if the accident happens of the 90thday, you earned your whole premium, and I earned my insured sum. The contract expires, there is nothing to cancel.

Your girlfriend on the other hand… I doubt you signed some form of agreement that she wasn’t allowed to break up with you :stuck_out_tongue:

The idea was that not everything that hurts you is punishable; hence saying that A would be terrible, therefore it should be forbidden is unfair.

What “insured sum”? There’s no such thing. You only have my promise to pay you some money in case something bad happens, and as you said, promises can be broken with no consequences. All I have to do is return your premium to you and decide not to pay you anything. It’s not YOUR property, why should I be forced to give you what isn’t yours? It’s just a promise!

What “insured sum”? There’s no such thing. You only have my promise to pay you some money in case something bad happens, and as you said, promises can be broken with no consequences. All I have to do is return your premium to you and decide not to pay you anything. It’s not YOUR property, why should I be forced to give you what isn’t yours? It’s just a promise!

Now that I think of it more in detail, you’re perfectly right! I can indeed cancel, but I’ll have to retrain the whole premium, as it is now clear that I haven’t held risk a single day. So yes, I’ll only have to return the whole premium. Touché!

Merlin, what exactly is your problem with contracts – a human institution thousands of years old? In your “system”, are there no other legitimate (voluntary) human interactions apart from ones involving immediate property exchanges? If so, what is the basis for imposing your (subjective) standard of legitimacy onto others?

Z.

Psfff… not my fault you had nothing to claim from day 1 - 89. Sorry, but those premiums are mine. :slight_smile:

I also want to know why it is you believe what you do. Do you not see obligations formally agreed to via contract as a valid form of property in and of themselves? Why not? Why is it that in your world, people can cause a significant amount of damage through non-performance of contract and yet not be liable? More importantly, who do you think is going to seek your business as an arbitrator, and why? Who won’t?

I don’t think I ever made that point, though.

If something hurts you because you and another party have a contractual agreement, and that other party fails to live up to their end of the agreement, then yes, that should be punishable.

Otherwise…

You run a mission critical application hosted on my data center. We have a 99.99% SLA and specified penalties. One day, I decide that I want to use some of my servers to look for aliens, instead, and I shut down your app, without notice. On a very important day for you, when you were presenting the app at an important conference. The app stays down all day, you look like a joke and lose thousands of dollars every minute, and the worst part of it all, is that I tell you “oh well, a promise is worth less than the contract I bring to the bathroom with me to wipe myself with!” and I laugh at you, while you go look for an arbitrator who actually respects the validity of contracts and recognizes that a written contractual agreement carries more strength and weight than a simple promise. Sure, maybe I get ostracized, but I was getting ready to retire anyways, and maybe I just didn’t like you all that much, and watching you fail was worth it.

I’m not pretending to force anyone into this. This Rothbardian stance is what I believe would come to be standard in a market of competing arbiters, that’s it. We’re just guessing here.

Psfff… not my fault you had nothing to claim from day 1 - 89. Sorry, but those premiums are mine. :slight_smile:

Not at all, since now that I claim, you do not provide. So its clear that you never held any risk, thus you never earned any premium at all.

I also want to know why it is you believe what you do.

This is Rothbard’s stance, not mine. He makes a compelling point for I myself would do as aan arbiter in The Ethics of Liberty.

Why is it that in your world, people can cause a significant amount of damage through non-performance of contract and yet not be liable?

Because there is no stopping point. Once you agree to allow damages for non-NAP-breaking actions that cause damage, you can easily claim damages for libel, or not showing up at parties, or for your girlfriend breaking up. Why not claim damages from Yahoo! If it shuts down its mail service? Taken to its proper extremes, it would paralyze society. Its a slippery slope with no end in sight.

More importantly, who do you think is going to seek your business as an arbitrator, and why? Who won’t?

Ah, the important question. Well, I certainly don’t know, but I believe that, especially in business, people would come to see that having the possibility to act on your contracts as you see fit is immeasurably advantageous.

Who would agree to a 20 years contact in a world where you cannot get out of contracts? These guys seeking to write long-term contracts would be the very first, I believe, to want arbitration that recognizes the right to leave. You can throw here all pension funds and life insurance, a massive fund! Otherwise no one will agree to the contract in the first place.

You run a mission critical application hosted on my data center. We have a 99.99% SLA and specified penalties. One day, I decide that I want to use some of my servers to look for aliens, instead, and I shut down your app, without notice. On a very important day for you, when you were presenting the app at an important conference. The app stays down all day, you look like a joke and lose thousands of dollars every minute, and the worst part of it all, is that I tell you “oh well, a promise is worth less than the contract I bring to the bathroom with me to wipe myself with!” and I laugh at you, while you go look for an arbitrator who actually respects the validity of contracts and recognizes that a written contractual agreement carries more strength and weight than a simple promise. Sure, maybe I get ostracized, but I was getting ready to retire anyways, and maybe I just didn’t like you all that much, and watching you fail was worth it.

Then he has every right to do so, just as you have none to pretend service form other people. They provide only as long as they feel like doing that.

Why can’t your contractual obligation to me (a limitation of your freedom, for sure) be considered my property, making your non-performance a NAP-breaking activity? People regularly sell/trade other people’s obligations (loans, bonds, stocks, futures contracts, options contracts, service contracts, insurance contracts, etc) on the open market, after all. Is it because Rothbard only recognizes tangible objects as property? Just trying to get to the bottom of your stance.

Your “slippery slope” examples are all strawmen, and your fears baseless. And we don’t have to wait for ancap to see how contracts would be treated by most arbitrators. Contracts have existed as essential economic tools through centuries and all across mankind – their benefits obvious to all. The verdict has been long decided, I’m afraid.

Z.

Because it smells of slavery. But of course, there are no theoretical arguments on my part against doing so. Its just my own point of view.

The fact that obligations are sold on the market (and almost certainly will continue to be under ancap) does not mean that only violent action (forceful restitution in case of canceling) can keep this market together. There are other ways (ostracism, bad will) that function much more effectively in specialized markets.

I hope so, but once we accept initially voluntary slavery as enforceable, the road ahead seems very turbulent to me. But let’s hope you are right, and my fear are indeed baseless.

To repeat myself, even in ‘my’ world, there would indeed be contracts, and quite elaborate ones for that matter! The fact that contracts exist and thrive does not mean that they have to be enforced by violent action.

Now, I agree that almost very nation nowadays agrees that some promises are binding (the emplyer’s but not the employee’s). But I regard Civil Code tradition as a very poor guide into the end state of a competing legal market.

I’m not aware of how the original common law tradition dealt with such cases. What I can say is that I highly doubt (but correct me if I’m wrong!) that British or Dutch merchants confiscated each-other’s goods in cases of a contract cancellation, back when they where allowed to deal with one another by their own code.

Allow me to pose a question to the ‘contarcter’s’ (forgive the term, it’s but for a lack of a better one): if most contracts could be, in general, enforced without violent action, would you agree to forbid violent action as enforcement?

If a human society could (I know it can’t, but my point is another) function without the application of violence (involuntary violence, that is), would you agree to banish violence altogether?

If you, along with me say 'yes’, than what you believe is that contacts cannot be enforced without violence? Or that, if even if they can, they should not? What is the point of contention here?

Is this Rothbard’s stance? Could you point me to where he mentioned that contractual obligations could be ignored? Not that I’m validating your appeal to authority… I’m just curious :slight_smile:

Prove that I wasn’t willing to claim during those days. You cannot do so, since you cannot read my mind or intentions. Without being able to prove me wrong, you have to acknowledge y that I held the risk during those days, and again, not my fault you didn’t have anything to claim from days 1 - 89, so nope, no premium for you!

This is a complete strawman. I’m talking about non-performance of specific clauses voluntarily agreed to in contract, in writing. Nothing you wrote here applies to my argument.

I can imagine that those selling the service could see it that way.

Strawman. This wasn’t my argument, either. I said that if you do leave the contract, you should still be liable for compensatory damages for what was originally agreed on. It’s up to the market to determine the extent of those, but I doubt they would be zero in all cases not involving transfers of your definition of property.

This is a valid point of contention. There is indeed a point where “voluntary” clauses can lead to conditions approximating slavery more than liberty. This is why I posed the question in the first place, because I do see it as possible for an HOA to become quite totalitarian, through “voluntary contracts”.

Current society recognizes that contractual clauses can be backed by force, while placing limits on damages (you cannot be forced to be someone else’s slave, for example…). This is not a point of argument for me; the market would decide this based on what people demanded. For me the real issue is the monopoly of force and the double standard between government and the rest of society. While you cannot be made a slave of another private person, you can most assuredly be made a slave of society via the force of government (taxation, etc…)

From “The Ethics of Liberty”, p.133 (emphasis mine):

The right of property implies the right to make contracts about that property: to give it away or to exchange titles of ownership for the property of another person. Unfortunately, many libertarians […] hold the contract itself to be an absolute, and therefore maintain that any voluntary contract whatever must be legally enforceable in the free society.

Their error is a failure to realize that the right to contract is strictly derivable from the right of private property, and therefore that the only enforceable contracts (i.e., those backed by the sanction of legal coercion) should be those where the failure of one party to abide by the contract implies the theft of property from the other party.

[…]

Let us illustrate this point. Suppose that Smith and Jones make a contract, Smith giving $1000 to Jones at the present moment, in exchange for an IOU of Jones, agreeing to pay Smith $1100 one year from now. This is a typical debt contract. What has happened is that Smith has transferred

his title to ownership of $1000 at present in exchange for Jones agreeing now to transfer title to Smith of $1100 one year from now. Suppose that, when the appointed date arrives one year later, Jones refuses to pay. Why should this payment now be enforceable at libertarian law?

Existing law […] largely contends that Jones must pay $1100 because he has “promised” to pay, and that this promise set up in Smith’s mind the “expectation” that he would receive the money.

Our contention here is that mere promises are not a transfer of property title; that while it may well be the moral thing to keep one’s promises, that it is not and cannot be the function of law (i.e., legal violence) in a libertarian system to enforce morality (in this case the keeping of promises).

Our contention here is that Jones must pay Smith $1100 because he had already agreed to transfer title, and that nonpayment means that Jones is a thief, that he has stolen the property of Smith. In short, Smith’s original transfer of the $1000 was not absolute, but conditional, conditional on Jones paying the $1100 in a year, and that, therefore**, the failure to pay is** an implicit theft of Smith’s rightful property.

Let us examine, on the other hand, the implications of the now prevalent “promise” or “expectations” theory of contracts. Suppose that A promises to marry B; B proceeds to make wedding plans, incurring costs of preparing for the wedding. At the last minute, A changes his or her mind, thereby violating this alleged “contract.” What should be the role of a legal enforcing agency in the libertarian society? Logically, the strict believer in the “promise” theory of contracts would have to reason as follows: A voluntarily promised B that he or she would marry the other, this set up the expectation of marriage in the other’s mind; therefore this contract must be enforced. A must be forced to marry B.

As far as we know, no one has pushed the promise theory this far. Compulsory marriage is such a clear and evident form of involuntary slavery that no theorist, let alone any libertarian, has pushed the logic to this point. Clearly, liberty and compulsory slavery are totally incompatible, indeed are diametric opposites. But why not, if all promises must be enforceable contracts?

Indeed the whole chapter is very, very interesting. When I first read it, I too found it ill-thought. But in time, i came to agree strongly.

Prove that I wasn’t willing to claim during those days. You cannot do so, since you cannot read my mind or intentions. Without being able to prove me wrong, you have to acknowledge y that I held the risk during those days, and again, not my fault you didn’t have anything to claim from days 1 - 89, so nope, no premium for you!

I do not pay 365 premiums for 365 contracts. I pay one premium, for one coverage. If you fail to provide, you void the contartc, hence none of that money is yours. The burden of proof in on you to show that you would have paid any other day.

I said that if you do leave the contract, you should still be liable for compensatory damages for what was originally agreed on. It’s up to the market to determine the extent of those, but I doubt they would be zero in all cases not involving transfers of your definition of property.

Its the same. Who would, in his right mind, enter a 99 year lease contract with you, when condition 5 years form not, let alone 55, are unpredictable? According to strict contracts enforcement, even if rents 20 years form now are 5000% of what we agreed, I still have to carry on. Would you enter into such a contartc without the right to cancel without penalty?