Autrian school and Silvio Gesell

jtimon, low (or manipulated, set) interest rates do not jibe with a “free market, full reserve and fixed monetary base”. You can’t have both at the same time. The market for money (its price, i.e. interest rates) is either free or it isn’t.

Exactly. That’s the WHOLE point. That’s why an interest rate (i.e. price for money, just like any other price) exists. Scarcity of capital (just like any other valued property) can not be eliminated by printing currency out of thin air. Printing only re(mis)allocates whatever real (actual) capital is available.

My point is that with money as austrians think it should be (hard money) prevents some enterprises to take place, even if they will have customers and there’s available resources to start and end it. The interest rate prevents businesses with less return than it to take place.

The key word is “available”. There is always a demand for the resources that are going to be used to start and finish.
If there was no demand, they would be available for free, by definition, and the popsicle guy could get his freezer without anyone printing money.
Meaning, whatever resources are available that he needs money for, somebody else wants.

If he would take the freezer or not depends on how much money he will make selling his popsicles (whatever that is). Everybody would be happier if could start his business (himself, his clients and the freezer seller), even if he could just afford a zero interest loan. But that won’t happen with hard money.

The fact that the other guy can get a greater return means he makes more profit. Meaning he has satisfied greater needs wasting less resources, for that is what generates profit.

Agreed. Gesell doesn’t care about profits because they tend to zero by the forces of the free market. In some sense, they are the wages of the entrepreneurs.

EDIT: If you don’t print money, how do you lower interest rates?

Of course, this is the hardest part. Gesell proposed demurrage. But it needs either a monopoly of money issuance by the government (as he proposed) or for money with demurrage to be preferred over other moneys in the market as a medium of exchange. The last, as far as I know, remains to be proved as true or false.

Other approaches come from the idea of removing the scarcity of money.

In a LETS community, money is created when needed, moving up the balance of the seller of the product and down the one of the payer.
These balances exist between every user and the LETS community as a whole which constitutes a state in itself and takes the losses from defaults.
This can only function in small communities where defaults can be “prevented” or controlled by knowing each other well.

A more elaborated approach inspired in LETS is Ripple. In Ripple, a network of accounts is created between the participants, each one connecting only to the people he trusts and with the credit limit he wants.
The participants can issue IOUs (denominated in any unit of account) to trade between them. Using software, one can pay to someone who is not directly connected to, but indirectly through an arbitrary number of intermediaries, who keep their overall balance unchanged (or augmented by charging a fee) after the transaction.
Interest rates (positives or negatives) can be applied too, but I think they would tend to zero because most accounts would be bidirectional.

These are my thoughts on it, but even if we got no way to reduce the interest rates in a free market, we can study the effects of the interest rates on capital returns, capital accumulation, employment and wages.

  1. No, the supermarket and all its meat customers would be unhappy. They want the freezer, too.

  2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popsicle

No, the supermarket and all its meat customers would be unhappy. They want the freezer, too.

The business with more returns would use the resource, but if none of them will be able to pay the interest rate, none of them will take the freezer, that will stay with the freezer seller. With zero interest rates, there’s more chances that one of the two will invest in the freezer. The big question is still how to achieve this within a free market (and avoiding miss-allocations).

I give up. Dave, he’s all yours.

There is a reason that an interest rate is what it is. The banker [and the depositors who trust him with their money] has to always ask himself, “Am I better off holding on to this cash, or lending it to this guy with the popsicles? After all, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. So I want as high an interest rate as I can get to justify parting with my hard earned money. After all, this yokel may lose it all. For all I know, he may just go out and snort coke with the money, or buy some lemon of a freezer that will break down in a month, leaving us both broke, too. And if interest rates are zero, or too close to zero, it just is not worth the risk I am getting into handing the money over to this guy for a few years. I’m better off snorting the coke myself with the money, or waiting till something better comes along.”

Ok. Because of its novelty, I’m sure there’s no autrian school text about Ripple, but is there any text on demurrage (without relating it to printing)?

Maybe it’s hard to see, but a currency with demurrage and a stable monetary base is feasible. My question would be, circulating within a free market in paralel with a stable monetary base currency without demurrage, would it be competitive or it would dissapear?

I didn’t read your post when I wrote my last one.

Of course, bankers would charge for his services. The risk premium would also be charged (or reduced with collateral). Ideally, the demurrage would be equal (but inverse) to the liquidity premium. Gesell proposed a 5% demurrage based on some research about the history of interest rates, but I think that number is quite arbitrary.

If money is scarce, the only way the interest can be lower than with hard money is using money with demurrage. Remains the question of if it would be compettive.

  1. We are getting wilder and wilder here. Demurrage seems to be setting up a system like the card game of Old Maid, so that whoever is left holding the physical money loses something. This will encourage bankers to invest all right, but it will also encourage mad spending, as everyone is in a rush to fob his cash on the next guy and buy something with no demurrage fee, like drugs. It’s like a country hit by hyperinflation.

  2. OK, a few q’s. What right has someone to inflict this plague on society? Cause it will help a few deadbeats get loans? Why should the holders of money have to lose so that these guys nobody trusts to loan to will get a little extra?

  3. Who knows what the unintended consequences will be for such a thing. I expect people will start avoiding that money like the poison it is, finding all kinds of creative ways not to use it. Meaning a loss of time and energy, better spent on producing things, wasted away on avoiding some ridiculous demurrage fee.

  4. Why not have dissolving money, made of a material that will self destruct after a while?

  1. We are getting wilder and wilder here. Demurrage seems to be setting up a system like the card game of Old Maid, so that whoever is left holding the physical money loses something. This will encourage bankers to invest all right, but it will also encourage mad spending, as everyone is in a rush to fob his cash on the next guy and buy something with no demurrage fee, like drugs. It’s like a country hit by hyperinflation.

Well, it depends on how high the demurrage fee were. If it were too high, the scenario, as you say, would be similar to a country with hyperinflation. If it is low, the spending would be encouraged just like in a country with modest inflation, but without the miss-allocations produced by printing.
I must admit that I don’t know what would be the right demurrage rate, intuitively I suspect that it shouldn’t lead to negative interest rates.

  1. OK, a few q’s. What right has someone to inflict this plague on society?

I think that it could be a gain for society, but no one would have the right to impose it. It would be used only in the case that people accept it in payments. If it were not competitive as a medium of exchange against a similar currency without demurrage, the free market will make it disappear.

Cause it will help a few deadbeats get loans? Why should the holders of money have to lose so that these guys nobody trusts to loan to will get a little extra?

Is not that nobody trust them (that kind of people won’t get the loan if there’s demurrage neither), is that their capital returns are not as high as the interest rates for currencies without demurrage.
There are benefits for society. Since the wealth is distributed between wages, capital returns and profits, the only way to increase wages is to decrease capital returns, which have a bottom limit determined by interest rates.
For example, the rent of a house is its capital return. The rent of a house cannot be lower than the interest rate of the cost of constructing the house because no more houses will be constructed when the returns of the housing sector become as low as the interest rates.
For Robinson, if the value of living in a house (the rent) over the years it will last equals (or is a little bit superior than) the costs of constructing it, it would be reasonable for him to construct it.
When money comes into play that is not true anymore: every capital must be at least as good as money. In this sense, hard money sets an upper limit to capital accumulation.

  1. Who knows what the unintended consequences will be for such a thing. I expect people will start avoiding that money like the poison it is, finding all kinds of creative ways not to use it. Meaning a loss of time and energy, better spent on producing things, wasted away on avoiding some ridiculous demurrage fee.

People won’t need creative ways to avoid using it because in a free market they could just use a money without demurrage instead. The question is, will people reject every payment with that currency because of the demurrage or will they calculate how much they will lose and adapt prices accordingly? Maybe both currencies would circulate in parallel, one being preferred for saving and the other for spending.

  1. Why not have dissolving money, made of a material that will self destruct after a while?

I doubt that such a material exists. But I think the more important part of gold durability for it to become money naturally from a barter economy is its resistance to water, fire and the elements in general.
If gold would lose a small percentage of its weight over time and it magically returned to the mine, I think it could have emerged as money too.

Ah, it’s voluntary. I personally wouldn’t touch it, but sure knock yourselves out, guys.

@ Jtimon,

You or other Gesellians should first explain and illustrate the main theories and policy suggestions of Silvio Gesell. It is basically community based money in the form of vouchers that has been used in places like Worgl and worked well until the Austrian central bank cracked down on it. This still leaves the question, if it also would work well under other circumstances.

Looking forward to hear more on this.

Gesell believed that there was an inherent disparity between money on the one hand and consumer/producer goods on the other. Money, according to Gesell (because it took the form of specie at the time), cannot rot, but all other goods either rot or depreciate. Because of this, economic stability, again according to him, is impossible. In order to fix the imbalance money must also expire/depreciate or “rot.” Gesell proposed a form of currency based on stamps/vouchers that expire over time.

Is a formal refutation of this nonsense really required?

It is working well in some regional currencies in germany like the chiemgauer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer

But it hasn’t been tried at a higher level. Irving Fisher proposed it for the US but it didn’t happen.

The more original feature in Gesell work is his theory on interest.

gross/nominal interest = real interest + inflation premium = basic interest + risk premium + inflation premium

Note that the inflation premium could be negative. Austrian often refer to basic interest as time preference. The basic interest is an economic rent inherent in non perishable monies like gold. While the yield of real capitals stay above the basic interest everything’s fine. But by competition among capitals, the yields of real capital should drop to zero just like economic profits do in perfect competition. But the basic interest prevents that from happening (that’s his definition of capitalism and that’s what he wants to remove to achieve a free market).

How does the basic interest prevent capital yields from falling?

When a given type of capital yields under the basic interest, lenders refuse to finance that capital market. No new production goods of that type (say houses, or facories of a given type) until by deterioration of capital or by an increase in demand, the capital can pay the basic interest again.

What happens when most or all types of capital yield below the basic interest? Aren’t lenders forced to lower the rate?

No. Staying liquid represents an insurance against uncertainty that money holder gets for free if he doesn’t want or can’t exact the basic interest. Hoarding increases which causes deflation, which encourages hoarding. Besides credit/debt gets destroyed by deflation. The financial market gets cleared fast with these two positive feedbacks and a new price equilibrium is reached in which money-capital has recovered its privileged position and real capitals yield over the basic interest again. Note how the monetary rent is transferred to real capital through the financial market.

This rent is collected not only in loans but from the price of all products by the merchant. Money enables specialization and the market itself. But it can also stop commerce if it doesn’t receive its tribute. Money is like a tollgate wares have to pay to pass through. All wares perish in the market waiting for the consumers, but money can wait as long as it takes to get its tribute. His solution is therefore letting the money rot too. He wants to suppress this rent by charging a demurrage fee on money that prevents hoarding. Money should only serve as medium of exchange and not storage of value.

Isn’t it attacking savers?

You can buy commodities or invest in real capital yourself. You need to lend to have the symbolic value contained in money in the future. You can’t hold that wildcard (which is the product of an implicit agreement among the currency users) for free. Yes, a demurrage few will make interests drop and lower their returns, but they will be saving much more from the chepeast products they will find in the market. Think about the price of the rent of a house which construction and maintainance costs in all its lifetime equal the sum of all the rents in the same period (economic profit = 0). Really cheap houses and everything else. Because there would be more houses and also more factories competing with each other. More employment too, because of this factories abundance.

Also, what made us think that money could serve as an effective store of value in the first place?

He puts it this way "As long as paper-money remains what it was meant to be, a medium of exchange, everything works smoothly. Paper-money used for any other purpose is not worth the paper upon which it is printed. It becomes a scrap of paper fit at best for lighting a pipe.

The anomaly of the physical junction of the medium of exchange and the medium of saving is still more obvious if we suppose that, as in Joseph’s time, a series of fruitful years is followed by a series of bad ones. During the fruitful years the people would of course be able to save, that is, to pile up a mountain of paper-money. If during the following years of scarcity the people wish to utilise this mass of paper it becomes apparent that there is no supply to balance the piled-up demand."

He’s taling about paper money here, but the example also serves for gold (as money, not as commodity once demonetized).

How this is different from Keynesianism?

Here he discusses a Keynesian-like paper-money reform: http://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/part3/13.htm

"But here the reformers of the note-issue intervene and say, Why did the crisis break out ? Because prices fell - and prices fell because money was scarce. Because of the lowered rate of interest on real capital, part of the stock of money was withdrawn from circulation. Good ! We leave the savers or the savings-banks in possession of the money, and let them hoard it; we shall replace it with new money. The State prints money and advances it to the employers, if the money of capitalists and money-savers is held back. If the rate of interest on real capital falls, the State also reduces the rate of interest on the money it issues. If employers can extract only 3, 2, 1% from their houses, factories, ships, the State supplies them with money at 3, 2, 1 %, or, if necessary, at 0 %.

[…]

Savers produce more commodities than they consume, and they do not again set free the money they receive for their surplus unless they are promised interest. The proposal now before us is that the crisis which is the direct result of the savers’ conduct should be resolved by the State supplying money to the employers at a lower rate of interest, this money to be new money straight from the printing-press. The surplus production of the savers is in this case not bought with their money, but with new money.

For the moment this is unimportant; with the help of the new money the building of houses, factories and ships proceeds without interruption. It is true that employers receive less and less interest from these enterprises, since building is now uninterrupted, and the supply of ships, tenements, etc. is constantly increasing. But parallel with the decrease of the interest they receive is the fall in the rate of interest they have to pay the Bank of Issue. As employers they are therefore indifferent to the amount of interest they receive on the ships or houses, as it must all be handed over to their creditors. Work proceeds without interruption, and there is therefore no interruption in saving. Many still find it advantageous to lend their savings at the lower rate of interest; but others, especially the small savers who, in any case, obtain but a trivial amount of interest, will return to tie old custom of keeping their savings at home and renouncing interest

[…]

But what if, for any reason, this demand came to life and appeared in the market ? Where would then be the corresponding supply of products ? If supply is lacking, prices rise, and rising prices cause differential profits. This prospect of gain entices money into the market ! The rise of prices, the prospect of differential profits, bursts open the savings-boxes and the billions of demand pour like an avalanche upon the market. “Sauve qui peut !” is the cry, and in the shipwreck the only lifeboats are the wares. Those who can buy wares are safe, so everybody buys wares. Demand rises to thousands of billions, and as supply is of course lacking, prices shoot up. The rise of prices annihilates savings. The peasant again uses paper-money as he used the French assignats - to paper his cowshed."

In summary, he accurately predicts a progresive fall in interest rates caused by the state by manipulating the financial market with newly created money (and not the real savings that are increasingly hoarded as a result of the lower interests) and eventually hyperinflation. He refers to Flürscheim, but is essentially against Keynesianism.

He adds: “A reform of this kind would be short-lived and would bring the possibility of the greatest fraud ever practised upon mankind. After such an attempt at reform the people, as in the past, would believe that their salvation lay in the gold standard and would clamour for its re-introduction.”

How do you implement this then? If not Keynes nor Gold, what’s the desirable structure of money?

This is where I disagree with Gesell more. Let’s leave that for later. Without much detail…“[…]introduction of a medium of exchange subject to a material, inherent compulsion to circulate[…]With Free-Money the traditional connection between the medium of saving and the medium of exchange is, in conformity with the results of our inquiry, irrevocably broken. Money becomes a pure medium of exchange, independent of the will of its possessor. Money becomes materialised demand.”

How can I paste plain text from my favorite text editor and preserve the end of lines?

I don’t expect anyone to read my last post that way.

Can I at least paste HTML directly? The software of this forum is strange.

Gesell believed that there was an inherent disparity between money on the one hand and consumer/producer goods on the other. Money, according to Gesell (because it took the form of specie at the time), cannot rot, but all other goods either rot or depreciate.

In his time there was the gold standard, not specie. As far as I know, without fractional reserve banking (at least in germany). How do you explain his concern with crises if everything was so perfect with gold-money?

Because of this, economic stability, again according to him, is impossible. In order to fix the imbalance money must also expire/depreciate or “rot.” Gesell proposed a form of currency based on stamps/vouchers that expire over time.

Is a formal refutation of this nonsense really required?

Since there’s alive economist (doctors and professors, scientists) who value his theory on interest, since his theory on interest is different from any other one and since he predicted the failure of paper-money without demurrage (a la Keynes). I think it is required, yes.

Could it be that your dogmas prevent you from understanding him?
In any case, if his reasonnings are nonsense you should find easy to reduce them ad adsurdum.
Are you familiarized with logical demonstrations?

Please, ask the following questions.

With “perfect competition” shouldn’t capital yields fall to zero like economic profits?

Isn’t this uncompatible with the time preference theory of interest?

Of the theories on interest that Gesell studied, what do you think is closer to time-preference?

I would say the time-preference theory on interest belongs to the “abstinence” cathegory, but tell me what you think.

How do you explain his concern with crises if everything was so perfect with gold-money?

Are you asking how there can be inflation under a gold standard? 1. Debasing the coinage. 2. Printing more paper than there is gold to back it. 3. Going off the gold standard in “emergencies” such as wartime. 4. Confiscating the citizenries gold.

I think it is required, yes.

Nowadays every country is doing what he recommended, reducing the value of money constantly. They do this not by requiring money to be stamped, but by printing more and more of it. By the laws of supply and demand, this reduces its value. And yet, somehow we are not better off.

He also thought a zero interest rate would solve all our problems. But we have that now in the US, and it’s not helping at all.

With “perfect competition” shouldn’t capital yields fall to zero like economic profits?

With perfect competition neither capital yields nor economic profits fall to zero. Do you think with perfect competition there would be no profits? Would people just close up shop, because there is no profit? With perfect competition both capital yields and economic profits would tend to [but never actually settle there for good, because new ideas constantly change the situation] a certain amount, the same for all businesses. Mises explains all this in human Action, Chapter 19, I think.

Isn’t this uncompatible with the time preference theory of interest?

Isn’t what uncompatible?

Of the theories on interest that Gesell studied, what do you think is closer to time-preference?

Not sure why this is important. But it looks like abstinence at least talks about time preference a little bit, though it seems to confuse the cart with the horse.

How can I paste plain text from my favorite text editor and preserve the end of lines?

Have you tried the Cntrl and V buttons?

The software of this forum is strange.

Yes.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but he believed in not having an interest rate. Really?

Are you asking how there can be inflation under a gold standard? 1. Debasing the coinage. 2. Printing more paper than there is gold to back it. 3. Going off the gold standard in “emergencies” such as wartime. 4. Confiscating the citizenries gold.

Fair enough. So you claim there have not been a monetary crisis under a gold standard with no fracional reserve or other conterfeiting, right? I will not try to prove you wrong with history, let’s stick to logic. I really like praxeology approach to economics.

Nowadays every country is doing what he recommended, reducing the value of money constantly. They do this not by requiring money to be stamped, but by printing more and more of it. By the laws of supply and demand, this reduces its value. And yet, somehow we are not better off.

He also thought a zero interest rate would solve all our problems. But we have that now in the US, and it’s not helping at all.

Please, read my post above under the question “How this is different from keynesianism?” He specifically predicted that a Keynesian-like system would fail. His prediction: interest rates dropping (through monetary inflation) to zero and then hyperinflation. I think you will at least agree with him there, although probably for different reasons.

With perfect competition neither capital yields nor economic profits fall to zero. Do you think with perfect competition there would be no profits? Would people just close up shop, because there is no profit? With perfect competition both capital yields and economic profits would tend to [but never actually settle there for good, because new ideas constantly change the situation] a certain amount, the same for all businesses. Mises explains all this in human Action, Chapter 19, I think.

I meant the theoric concept of perfect competition in which (I’m not making this up), mathemathical theoric reserch demonstrates that economic profits drop to zero. But I accept your notion that they tend to zero. Do you think that capital yields also tend to zero by competition in the same way profits do?

Not sure why this is important. But it looks like abstinence at least talks about time preference a little bit, though it seems to confuse the cart with the horse.

Does the Austrian school has a similar classification? Have they classified his theory on interest and explained why is wrong?