Ayn Rand and Libertarianism

I love the works of Ayn Rand, and I think that the core Objectivist tenets are quite sound; however, their conclusions don’t always follow from their premises (ironic, since they’re always telling others to check theirs). Rand-worship, in particular, is something that makes absolutely no sense, given her philosophy.

It was interesting to see the mention of The Satanic Bible in the OP. That was actually my first real individualist reading, and from there I branched out into Rand, Nietzsche, and eventually Austrianism. I have to agree with the others in this thread, though… just because LaVey got some inspiration from Rand does not mean in any way that LaVeyan Satanism must logically follow from Objectivism.

One Randian thought that I absolutely agree with is that capitalism has to be justified on moral grounds—its moral basis has to be elucidated first, not as an afterthought. To support it out of utilitarianism (or anything similar) implies that the most utilitarian system should be used, regardless of its implications on liberty and egoism. I understand that consequentialist arguments can be helpful when talking to welfare statists or bleeding hearts or whatever the case may be, but capitalism can’t stand upon them alone.

One of these days, I’m going to write an essay about Objectivism, because I honestly don’t think Rand-worshippers have the right to the name. I also think that explaining Objectivism more clearly to libertarians (e.g., everyone here) would make it more appealing and take away a lot of the cultishness.

I was politically apathetic before I read Rand’s stuff. I quickly read everythign she wrote. It wasn’t long before one thing lead to another and I was reading Austrian material left and right. For me it was pretty much in this order.

Ayn Rand → Ron Paul → Rest of AE.

Fiction is a wonderful thing, I wish there was more fiction founded on capitalism as offered, even it erroneous in some ways. I also strongly agree to Rand’s notion that man has the capabiltiies in him of being a heroic figure. I wish we all lived life in such a positive manner. Such things are very insipring. Instead we have various religious dogma’s which teaches us that we should constantly live life in shame, fear, and regret. Regardless of our actions whether good or bad.

I think kids would benefit more if their hero’s were capitalist humans making a real positive difference in the world, as opposed to some fictitious superhero wearing tights or some sports superstar.

That’s true, but that’s more a case of some crazy individuals rather than anything about Objectivism. I’m sure they exist even today, but the Objectivists I’ve ever talked to had no element of “Rand-worship” whatsoever. But then again I haven’t really talked to that many, so I may be completely off-base on that.

There are different kinds of Objectivists.

The Orthodox Objectivists (these are usually aligned with the Ayn Rand Institute run by Leonard Pekoff (sp?), her ‘heir’. These people are very anti-libertarian. They have ‘excommunicated’ Objectivists who have dared to even appear or present at libertarian events (ex: David Kelley). SOLO Passion is an on-line form that many of these people go to.

The non-Orthodox aren’t so rigid. They may or may not be aligned with David Kelley’s Atlas Society and certain non-Orthodox forums like Objectivist living. They are quite welcoming to libertarians and general fans of Rand.

For me, it was a combination of reading Ayn Rand, Harry Browne, and Robert Ringer in college that turned me into a libertarian. This lead me to reading reason, getting the Laissez-Faire Books catalog and reading Rothbard, Mises, and the like. While I like Rand’s fiction, and reading Steve Dikto’s work, and most of her non-fiction, it was reading her later fiction that kind of turned me off from Objectivism. Rand seemed to get really bitter in her later years, which was reflected in her writting. Her attitude that seemed to be that if you were a ‘true Objectivist’, you would only like this and this and this, and NOT like this and this and this. I didn’t care for that, and that was the begining of my journey from being an Objectivist to being a libertarian.

Well, Leonard Peikoff is a really good example of a Rand-worshipper. I’ll be honest—I don’t actually know a whole lot about the guy (partly because he’s devoted his existence to Rand), but I’ve seen quotes and such by him that completely blow me away. For instance, talking about The Passion of Ayn Rand, “Peikoff pronounced that the biography was motivated by ‘venomous hatred’ and agreed with Schwartz that its entire contents were ‘non-cognitive’; unlike Schwartz, however, he proclaimed that he had never read it and never intended to.” I can’t speak for the book itself, but the movie made from it was very good and very true-to-life. Orthodox Objectivism might as well be Orthodox Christianity with Rand inserted in the place of Christ.

But again, I agree with the gist of what you said. I really don’t think Objectivism itself is to blame for this… some people just go a bit crazy. There are other Objectivist conclusions that I don’t think follow from its tenets, however—it’ll be something I’ll have to explain more in my would-be essay.

Well, Peikoff is pretty much the leader of the Orthodoxy. He runs the Ayn Rand Institute and was Rand’s legal heir and claimed intellectual heir.

The picadillo over the Brandens is a good indication if a person is part of the Orthodoxy or not.

Right, I understand. I guess I was kind of trying to point out how crazy he is, and he still has supporters that claim they’re all Objectivists. So there’s definitely more than just a few nutjobs inside the movement.

  1. If you desire liberty, the most “utilitarian”, to you, system is the system which disseminates the most freedom.

  2. The claim that “utilitarianism […] implies that the most utilitarian system should be used, regardless of its implications on liberty and egoism” implies that “utility” is objective.

Well, there are even more examples of his nuttiness. I believe things like demands that all ‘true Objectivist’ would only vote Democrat (?!?), and such like that.

That guy is disgusting. He makes O’reilly seem reasonable.

Nope. I simply think any “cultishness” is exaggerated and pretty much rumor, at the very least in 2009. Now if you have some evidence to show otherwise, I’d look at it. I’ve never seen anyone, anywhere, speak of being a “true Objectivist”. And obviously if someone understood Objectivism, it would be clear that it is a philosophy to live a good life (i.e. your own life and values), not a philosophy that tells you what to do.

I’m sorry, but I think individual utilitarianism is just a roundabout way of expounding rational/ethical egoism. If I want liberty, the system that satisfies my self-interest the most is that which “disseminates the most freedom.”

Folks, you must listen to this: http://mises.org/media/2824 ! It is a must. JoAnn Rothbard recaping the Rothbard`s Ayn Rand experience. Very humorous.

Why are you sorry?

Thanks for bringing attention to this, so great !

Man that is fun. I need to dig more through the audio section, there are some real gems

Because, due to the aforementioned, I can’t view individual utilitarianism as a legitimate form of utilitarianism. Either one is a utilitarian or an egoist (other options notwithstanding)… not both.

If you believe that “utilitarianism” is inherently or necessarily a collectivist ideology, how do you explain the “utilitarianism” of Ludwig von Mises, an individualist?

Mises seemingly failed to recognize either rational egoism or ethical egoism. He thought that all men were rational a priori and that ends were not open to analysis. So, where he advocated individualism, it was because of its perceived benefit to everyone involved (utilitarianism). If I advocate individualism, it’s because of its perceived benefit to me. That doesn’t mean that utilitarian arguments are useless—I know that most statists aren’t going to have a moral revolution just by reading Atlas Shrugged—but it means that utilitarianism is the wrong moral premise upon which to base capitalism.

If, according to the definition that Mises used, a person desires to perform an action because he desires to obtain what he believes that action will cause, he is “rational”. So to just say “[he] thought that all men [are] rational a priori” is very misleading. In fact, I do not even know why you mentioned it.

He wrote that the ultimate desires of each individual are “not open to analysis”. Each other desire of each individual, which comprises the majority of the desires of each individual, are indeed “open to analysis”. For, if X prevents Y and an individual performs X but desires Y, one can criticize the contradictory nature of that situation.

In the system of Mises, the doctrine “utilitarianism” merely states that (a) the existence of the division of labor along with any further intensification of the division of labor benefits each individual involved and (b) that, therefore, it is a means, not an ends, and (c) that, therefore, the self-interest of an individual translates to the social-interest of the individual. In other words, if one desires to strengthen oneself, one should desire to strengthen society.

I am not sure what the intended connection between those statements is.