Bitcoin DO NOT WANT!?

I have not said it would be something that per definition could be shut down completely. But it could be something that only “bad” guys do. I mean would you honestly think that you could use BTC if it was illegal to order something at Amazon? How is it supposed to be the future this way?

But if you had companies that take care of your wallets, then you are not independent and anonym anymore. Especially if it is declared to be illegal, what is likely in case it grows, this will not be a solution. So the free market is quite restrained in helping there.

Please read what I wrote. How the hell am I supposed to know? Because you say so?

First private banks that go bust can be sued for mismanagement and damages even if they were caused initially by Bernanke. Yes for public entities this is more complicated, but at least there is something/someone who needs to fear repercussions if things don’t go well. Yes the political/democratic system is not a very good transmitter. But it at least is some mechanism, if all of New York went on the street to protest against Bernanke you can be pretty damn sure that they will fire him, as well as maybe the government needs to do reelections. Not possible if your BTC wallet goes bust, or is hacked.

You have a clear double standard. You simply assert that BTC is crash proof (if it was just a little bit older) but on the other hand argue that even Gold and Silver had huge price movements although they are thousands of years old, and yes even Silver was nearly completely demonetized, that is exactly the point! Also you even argue that Golds value is unsustainably inflated because you compare it to its industrial value but you do not allow such an argument in case of BTC. How can you say Gold is risky because of this but BTC is not? That only is possible if you think BTC is crash proof just because it is a crypto. Another point: To believe that a change from BTC to BTC2 (a better crypto) would go along orderly slow manners without heavy or fast market movements is just another proof that you are biased, especially if you at the same time consider Gold as unsustainably inflated that could crash to 10% of its value in a short time, if people just recognized how good BTC was. But it’s not possible in case BTC2 comes along… That’s 3 clear reasons that show that you are not fair in your assessment.

I got the number for 2011 wrong. It is actually 53/47. Not 43/57…
For 60/40 (Go down to Consumption)

Also just as a hint how the demand for Jewelry is historically working with Gold. The lower the price the higher the demand for Jewelry. So I think you are mistaken if you believe people would stop buying Gold Jewelry and even sell all of it in case the price drops significantly.

What I meant with „only industrial value is guaranteed” while “monetary is not” is just that the function of medium of exchange can be theoretically performed by a lot of other things. Theoretically by different commodities, fiat money and even cryptos, which means its very volatile. To substitute industrial demand for Gold is either very hard or outright impossible. If you want a Gold ring, there is no way around, you only can use Gold. Monetary demand on the other hand can be done e.g. by Silver just as well, and therefore theoretically taken over entirely by it. I didn’t mean that industrial value couldn’t increase or decrease, but just that is hard to substitute this kind of demand. Sorry was badly worded though..

I don’t understand how you are making this an objection to cryptocurrency. All currencies have the difficulty of keeping them safe. If you can solve this problem, please do!

However, the key question is, “Is cryptocurrency less safe than gold?” and I think the definitive answer is “No.”

I could take a private key and memorize it. Now my money is safely stored in my brain.

But if you don’t like that 5 cent solution, there’s no reason you couldn’t print the private keys and put them into a vault bolted to your floor, or anywhere else for that matter.

Keep in mind that this could potentially be a million dollars worth of bitcoins. You can’t do that with gold. You can’t do that with any physical currency.

It appears to be a double standard, because your mixing the arguments. Bitcoins are completely 100% immune to the same crash that Gold and Silver are prone to (Unpredictable supply fluctuations.) but it is prone to speculation, just like any other product on the market (Including Gold and Silver).
And just like any other product on the market, Bitcoins will be less prone to speculation as the amount of people using it goes up.

Hence Bitcoins clearly have the advantage. They’re better when it comes to a predictable supply, but the same when it comes to speculation.

Also, what hasn’t been pointed out is that Bitcoins can be traded physically via putting a private key into a physical currency with tamper-proof seals. So for those of you who prefer money that you can touch (I’m thinking of you Jack Cuyler!), Bitcoins can accomodate that.

I have thought about a theory for some time now. I think it is quite relevant for BTC although at first I thought about it only in regard to Gold (If Gold would tend to be the sole money in a world which had a money market completely free of government intervention). It is a bit longer though:

I have to define following terms first:

Industrial value: This arises from industrial demand only hence consuming it.

Monetary value: This is demand for the purpose to be used as medium of exchange.

Investment value: I think it makes sense to differentiate investment demand from monetary demand for the further elaboration, since demanding something for the purpose of a medium of exchange and a store of value are not tantamount!

Overvaluation/Undervaluation: This is when market participants try to anticipate future price movements. If the price of commodity X is at 5$ now but is expected by someone to be at 7$ in the future, then there is an arbitrage that can be reaped if this expectation turns out to be right. Hence commodity X was undervalued now compared to the future. The other way around is overvaluation. What actually is done is trying to assess the fundamentals of supply and demand of commodity X.

For non-monetary goods this is comparably easy to do, since it is only about industrial value. The investment aspect of value that is attached to it due to speculation/investment in such a good is neutral in the long run. If I invest today and increase its demand now, I will reduce the demand by the same amount when I finally sell it to realize either my profit or loss.

For a monetary good like Gold this is tricky. You not only have to assess the fundamentals of supply and demand due to its industrial value, but also of its monetary value. Although it may seem to many as an investment demand if a central bank holds hundreds of tons of Gold admittedly not to be a medium of exchange in the foreseeable future, but for “traditional” reasons of insuring themselves against tail risks, like a disintegration of the current fiat money regime, then this is not neutral in the long run. The central bank implicitly assumes that in case the current money standard fails they will need their Gold as a medium of exchange. Hence the demand of Gold really is purely of a monetary nature, not an investment nature that is usually based on an increase/decrease in industrial value. To make matters even more complicated such a demand for insurance purposes against tail risks also comes from private market participants. Such a demand generally can cause investments by other people who don’t see Gold as an insurance but only bet on an increase/decrease in monetary demand on Gold (that is tantamount to increasing/decreasing fear of a failing fiat money regime).

As I already suggested, it was good maybe to use BTC for transactions but other things like Gold as a store of value. No why is this, and why (I guess at least) does it sound intuitively reasonable to most people. Now please consider my following argument is based on the condition of a complete free market in money. Neither governments nor any central banks are involved.
Think of a world in which only Gold is used as medium of exchange initially. Now like Clayton argued money is inherently eliminative to variation. If that was true no other medium of exchange could come up and gain monetary value and rival Gold as a medium of exchange in this environment. I will argue here that is only true to a certain extent and counter forces are working that act in form of opportunity costs which at a certain level are bigger than the benefit to use the standard money which is Gold in this case.

If only Gold is used as medium of exchange then of course this means that its monetary value is huge compared to its industrial value. One effect would be that, if there were no electronic payment systems and money substitutes, this would cause a big problem because it is hard to split Gold into such small units as to reflect the value of small transactions. And as we really see in history in fact it has, therefore also other metals were used who did have smaller value per ounce like Silver and Copper. Today of course I think this would not pose a problem anymore due to electronic payment and clearing systems banks could easily “divide” Gold as small as necessary.

While I guess so far everyone will agree I am arguing there is even one more reason that drives people to use other things as medium of exchange as well. It really is the spread between the monetary value over the industrial value coupled with added volatility due to investment value that acts as a counterforce the bigger the spread. The basic concept is that markets try to find things that are undervalued to buy while at the same time they try to find things that are overvalued to sell, making a profit and avoiding possible losses this way. Monetary value for my point of view is very prone to overvaluation since no commodity also not Gold does have a monopoly to act as a medium of exchange. Silver for example can do the job just as well.

And this is how I think it would work: This means you will not save in cash only, but only as far as your subjective cash preference (How much of a cash balance you actually think you need for daily spending and unforeseeable events) goes. The excess cash will be invested in something other. This of course can be stocks, a mutual fund, general commodities, bonds or whatever. All of them will act as a store of value for you. Yet most investments will not pose a problem for Gold as money, but some are not only a good investment idea as a store of value because they are undervalued but are also quite potent to act as medium of exchange. Especially at the beginning there is a huge incentive not to have too much in Gold, because it is at its peak value, it just cannot go any higher in its value, which means losses are practically guaranteed. The next best solution was to invest in Silver. There is not much downside risk since it is at its industrial value. Gold only can lose, Silver only can gain. Since Silver is very liquid it can even replace the cash balance function of Gold extremely well. So from the outset we already have a strong incentive that would tend to drive Gold’s value down and Silver’s value up.

Additionally with companies like GoldMoney you can not only invest in different precious metals but they also allow you to transfer any amount of any metal (even very small amounts for quite low fees!) to other customers at GoldMoney (They even offer a general payment system as well, I guess it is a bit like PayPal.). So if Gold was initially the sole medium of exchange and I have invested in Silver and a too small cash balance in Gold and I want to buy something from someone who also has an account at GoldMoney and would accept Silver it would be stupid to sell Silver to have the Gold to transfer it to the other guy. Gold would still be the unit of account for the reason of economic calculation. In terms of payment however I just would transfer the Silver directly using it as medium of exchange and therefore decreasing the demand for Gold as medium of exchange, saving the sell and buy spread of Silver, while at the same time increasing the demand for Silver as medium of exchange. This would cause a small shift of demand for a medium of exchange from Gold to Silver which in itself could drive other people to invest in Silver to gain from this increase in value, at the same time encouraging them to use Silver directly as medium of exchange, which again would decrease the demand for Gold as medium of exchange and so on…

This could go on until Silver was overvalued compared to Gold. I don’t know in how far other assets and commodities like oil and so on could play a role, but I really think this would basically be a thing of precious metals. And the point at which this process would ultimately be limited is of course their industrial values. So while an expected rise in value might trigger also a demand not only as store of value but also as a medium of exchange, also the reverse is true, which is an expected loss of value that could drive people away from it and therefore also reducing its demand as medium of exchange.
A change in value due to changes of industrial demand doesn’t seem to be itself quite volatile, the more important part is that the decrease and increase in the monetary value itself would always act as positive feedback (compounded by investment behavior) to strengthen the current trend upward and downward, which is simple “bubble” mentality. The fundamentals of the industrial value are quite stable since no matter what only Gold is Gold. If you want a Gold ring, there is no way around it. However the monetary value which is derived from it as medium of exchange can be performed by Silver just as well as already said above. I hope you see where I am getting with this example.

I maintain that Gold would not stay the only medium of exchange in my given example. Its extreme spread between monetary and industrial value would make it absolutely unattractive as store of value for excess cash and maybe even large parts of the cash balance. This then would trigger a need to transact directly in whatever store of value that was chosen, which could be successfully met by commodities like Silver. This would level this spread of industrial versus monetary value among at least some precious metals.

Every market has an ideal amount of competing firms, some have thousands, some hundreds and some very few like less than 5. I believe the market of money, that is eliminative to variation yet also is still prone to volatility due to the market process that always seeks under- and overvaluation from which monetary value is not exempted, might be like the civil aeroplane market with Boing and Airbus. There are a handful of choices but at least 2 quite big ones.

How does BTC come into play here? I think not at all. There is no starting/stopping point of industrial value. This spread is infinite. Therefore there is no genuine undervaluation possible. There only is overvaluation possible (Of course it would be possible for BTC to be technically oversold and overbought → market psychology). Think of the same world as described above with the exception that BTC is the sole thing used as money at the beginning. As described before people/markets will look for undervalued possibilities to invest their excess cash. This necessarily will also include precious metals and maybe other things that might be easily transferable to other people made possible by firms like GoldMoney. BTC in this scenario can only go down from there; it cannot reach a higher value as at the beginning of our thought experiment just as it (nearly) was with Gold. The same thing would happen as explained above, but while there is a logical stopping point at which Gold really cannot go lower in value, for BTC such a point just doesn’t exist. I am not saying BTC would be demonetized in one day. If there really is a full-fledged economy based solely on BTC at the beginning of our thought experiment, then it would be possible that BTC might be the main medium of exchange for years or even decades. My conclusion is that in a world free of government intervention in the money market BTC would tend to become worthless.

Now you are saying that that the transactions costs are lower than of Gold. Yes right, but so are the transaction costs of Gold compared to Silver. While this is true that would hardly stop the whole process as described above in neither case. They would merely have an effect on how fast it would play out. If you agree above that Gold was successfully rivaled by at least e.g. Silver, you also must consistently agree that BTC would be affected the same way, with the difference that it has no industrial value. Yes transaction costs play a role, but only in so far as they increase the opportunity costs to switch to a different medium of exchange, but do not prevent it entirely. Especially not if you are already invested in e.g. Silver or Gold anyway. Compared to possible gains in value transaction costs of precious metals really are negligible (Electronic payment systems, Money substitution and clearing systems would make this costs very low anyway).

My conclusion: In a money market free of government intervention due to the market process not one thing alone could be medium of exchange (although one of them could be the ultimate unit of account for the purpose of economic calculation). This also is the reason why a crypto currency like BTC could not survive in such an environment, because it needs a huge barrier of entry into the money market that only a government could supply.

Any thoughts on this?

Well that was quite a read. And you ended with a doozy.

You seem to have forgotten that Bitcoins have gained all of their current value from mutual voluntary transactions. Bitcoins were never “redeemable” for a commodity.

Now onto the meat of the issue!

You’re arguing that Bitcoins would not survive in a true free market because people would trade out of them in favor of investments that have a percieved ROI (Return on Investment) and since Bitcoins do not have any percieved ROI they will be supplanted by those things that do. Aye?

The main problem is that a cryptocurrency (likely Bitcoins) would be the defacto Unit of Account in a free society. Since the supply isn’t constantly fluctuating it makes much more sense to use them over Gold, Silver, or a fiat currency. Market prices wouldn’t need to be adjusted based on what kind of silliness the unit of account itself is doing.

Since Bitcoins would be the unit of account, it makes sense that people would use them in their daily transactions, and also when they want to hold onto their money without fear of devaluation.

No commodity can compete with a cryptocurrency in this way, and therefore can’t push it out of the market.

There would be no ROI with a cryptocurrency when there is no risk. This is the ultimate goal and foundation of Bitcoins, not the driver of its extinction.

We’re not talking about quantity of money, only velocity. To avoid monetary cylces it should be more or less constant, and demurrage can achieve that (with a fixed monetary base).

The fact that freicoin solves the potential “tragedy of the commons” problem in bitcoin is only a nice side effect. Even if that’s not a problem, miners would charge lower transaction fees because they’re earning demurrage fees. But this is not the main reason to start freicoin.

Holding cash is like an insurance agaisnt, so all the users pay for that proportionally.

The distribuition of funds to miners is more random in bitcoin than in freicoin (after max supply), bitcoin miners need luck to get their block in when there’s high transaction fees.

The main Gesellian idea is that capital yields are artificially prevented from dropping near zero (like economic profits thend to do by competition), by the basic interest (nominal/gross interest = real interest + inflation premium = basic interest + risk premium + inflation premium), which is dependendent on the structure of money. The basic interest is an economic rent and should be eliminated.

That’s the main motivation behind gesell’s free-money (freigeld) and freicoin.
Anyway, I don’t want to disturb the forum. We can keep on discussing it in the Gesell thread in this forum, in the freicoin forum or in any of the various threads dedicated to it in bitcointalk. I’m always happy to do that, but probably not here, this thread is about bitcoin.

I was just asking for an austrian critique to Gesell, if there’s any. Just like in the other thread, I just thought that Andre could know about one.

Thank you for your interest,

Sorry if this was addressed before (I only browsed through 70% of the thread and didn’t see anything not already discussed in other bitcoin threads), and pushing all theoretical issues aside, wouldn’t the above be an obvious and major obstacle for bitcoin to ever become a widely accepted medium of exchange (i.e. money)? Would anyone keep any significant portion of their net worth in bitcoins whose value would be inversely proportional to how widely bitcoin13s or bitcoin97s become accepted as media of exchange? I know I wouldn’t.

There’s a bunch of them already. Just look at their prices in btc:
https://btc-e.com/
https://vircurex.com/

Starting a currency doesn’t give it value. It needs users. And for users to switch they have to include a meaningful change. Chain currencies need to be free software, so technical improvements can be backported. You need a reason to move from one money to another. Just having a different name and less users won’t do it. Cash monies are more valuable the more people they accept them. Credit monies are another story.

jtimon, so no answer?

The answer is no. Cash money needs a lot of users. A money with one user just makes no sense. For everybody to print their own money you have mutual credit.

Your answer to the last question in my post is “no”?

No to your previous questions

So what would your answer be to the last one?

No. There’s a bunch of them already and look at their prices in btc:
https://btc-e.com/
https://vircurex.com/

Starting a currency doesn’t give it value. It needs users. And for users to switch they have to include a meaningful change. Chain currencies need to be free software, so technical improvements can be backported. You need a reason to move from one money to another. Just having a different name and less users won’t do it. Cash monies are more valuable the more people they accept them. Credit monies are another story.

You’re being deliberately obtuse. I said the last one:

“Would anyone keep any significant portion of their net worth in bitcoins whose value would be inversely proportional to how widely bitcoin13s or bitcoin97s become accepted as media of exchange? I know I wouldn’t.”

Can you guarantee that bitcoin97 would not be marketed better or not have features that are subjectively valued more by more people than bitcoin? Every single pro-bitcoin argument put out here (their merit notwithstanding) is also an argument for bitcoin97 – which paradoxically makes them arguments against both.

There have been people who had subjectively valued beenie babies during a period of time, after all. Who could have predicted that?

Z, my answer to that would be: the same could be said of the BitTorrent protocol. Such a protocol is nearly useless if traffic gets split up among too many mutually incompatible systems. The arguments for bitcoin don’t all apply to bitcoin-2, since currently much of the reason for adopters to take the plunge with bitcoin is because it’s by far the biggest and most established of its kind. There is an effect where people gravitate to the most promising standard. There are cases where two very similar standards might compete for a while because adoption is close to even between them, but the odds would seem to approach zero as the number of similar standards competing grows (of course, the argument hinges on “how similar is similar,” because perhaps even small differences in a protocol or infrastructure built around it could result in adoption by different, entrenched groups).

Aj summarized it well, but I’ll answer to all your questions.

Would anyone keep any significant portion of their net worth in bitcoins whose value would be inversely proportional to how widely bitcoin13s or bitcoin97s become accepted as media of exchange?

Bitcoin has currently a market cap of 61,562,040 USD, there’s many people doing it. I would.

http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/

Every single pro-bitcoinprecious metals argument put out here (their merit notwithstanding) is also an argument for bitcoin97silver – which paradoxically makes them arguments against both(gold and silver).

Yeah, I don’t find Bitcoin97 argument compelling. People are more likely, for a number of reasons, to stick with the biggest playe.

I could see two parties to a transaction creating a one-off currency to facilitate an exchange at agreed upon ratios and then abandoning the currency, like a barter with the help of temporary money, but that’s not even worth talking about, flash in the pan.

What if bitcoin-2 is not of bitcoin’s kind, but better? Bit-torrent or VHS (vs. Betamax) are not proper analogies. No one has ever bet more than 1% of their net worth on them remaining at the top.

This does not answer the question: “Would anyone keep any significant portion of their net worth in bitcoins whose value would be inversely proportional to how widely bitcoin13s or bitcoin97s become accepted as media of exchange?”

Your analogy with gold/silver does not hold water. When alchemists can design metals in the same manner that coders can design crypto-patterns, then perhaps the analogy may work. Also, when bitcoin survives as the prefered medium of exchange and holder of value over many thousands of years, during rises and falls of empires, and across multiple continents, then perhaps the analogy may have a chance of working. In the meantime, beanie babies and tullips are much closer analogies.

What if bitcoin-97 was much better?

I have been intrigued by bitcoin ever since I heard about it years ago, but the more I read about it I am less convinced that it is, or that it will ever become, money. I can see how all sorts of crypto-patterns will be used as envelopes through which parties transfer money (payments), or say, Amazon-backed crypto-Amazon-coins being used as media of exchange, but I see any such scenario working only if the crypto-patterns act as mere envelopes for real money or as “notes” backed by real money (i.e. gold).

According to Mises in The Theory of Money and Credit, a certain type of money "must always be linked with a pre-existing market exchange-ratio between money and other economic goods (since otherwise individuals would not be in a position to estimate the value of the money), it follows that an object cannot be used as money unless, at the moment when its use as money begins, its already possesses an objective exchange-value based on some other use’ (110). People claim that the cost of producing the currency thus creates an objective-exchange value, but that would then apply to fiat money as well; but we know that is not true. Once again, according to Mises (I just read his book so I’m paraphrasing what he said), the reason why the fiat money of today has any value, is because at one point it was backed by gold, and when the gold standard was dropped, people still had an understanding of its objective-exchange value.

An in regard to your point about gold inflating, I believe I read in Rothbard’s book, What has the government done to our money, that if gold were to inflate, it would act just like any fiat currency would, and therefore who adjust itself eventually to normal conditions. The other possibility is that we would just switch to silver, or whatever the market desired. And speculating that we could find gold on an asteroid, and that we will be able to mine it, seems like a far-reaching argument in order to substantiate why we should use Bitcoin.

I personally, haven’t done much research on this specific topic, I’m going off the top of my head a bit and resorting back to what I remember from these books, so if you prove that I’m wrong I will appreciate it. This is my first economist forum where I feel intimated, so criticism is helpful.