Collateral damage

Thousands.

Shhh, don’t confuse us with facts. And note that the local population is not nearly so discriminating in its assignment of responsibility for deaths as our local media is… it doesn’t really matter whether a family of Iraqi children got blown up by US forces or Iraqi forces shooting at US forces, in the minds of the locals, we’re responsible for all the fighting.

Machiavelli says in Chapter V of The Prince:

And he who becomes master of a city accustomed to freedom and does not destroy it, may expect to be destroyed by it, for in rebellion it has always the watch-word of liberty and its ancient privileges as a rallying point, which neither time nor benefits will ever cause it to forget. And what ever you may do or provide against, they never forget that name or their privileges unless they are disunited or dispersed but at every chance they immediately rally to them, as Pisa after the hundred years she had been held in bondage by the Florentines.

Now, The Prince is POLISCI 101, every government official down to just about the dog catcher has read it. It’s impossible to believe that Donald Rumsfeld or George Bush or Dick Cheney or Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton has not read and possibly even memorized the entire book, including this passage. So, knowing that conquering and occupying a foreign nation without destroying it completely or living there (in other words, full colonization) will result in a backlash from the locals yet doing it anyway can only mean that that is precisely what those behind these wars wanted in the first place.

Clayton -

Maybe Hitler’s cause was more noble than the allies’ cause. After all, he wanted to expand eastwards and take over Russia, a far more brutal regime than Hitler’s. Under the premise that we should attack regimes if they are brutal and to hell with collateral damage, Hitler was more justified than the allies were. If anything they should have allied with him against Stalin.

Also, you are overlooking the full range of possibilities available to the allies. They could have allied witht the former aristocracy to overthrow Hitler. They could have sent in commando squads to assassinate him. But no, they have to firebomb residential centers and demand unconditional surrender.

But of course Amerikans and English are just friendly humanitarians, here to help their fellow man, no matter the cost, and no matter who has to bear it.

U still haven’t answered my question. I consider the state to be the greatest enemy of civilization. Mind if I conscript you into my cause against it? Would you mind if you were collateral damage?

Also, dictators are constrained by scaricity just like everybody else. They have to choose between ends. If you’re not in their way or worth their effort, they likely will leave you alone. The Germans had no interest in going to war with England. Hitler thought that the English empire was a necessary part of the world order. His intentions were always to expand eastwards and colonize Poland, Ukaraine, and Russia, because he wanted access to those countries natural resources, a.k.a. lebensraum. There were very real economic causes for the war. Trade barriers between countries lower productivity within those countries which encourages aggression to break those trade barriers down. Britain and France have only themselves to blame for getting invaded, since they declared war on Germany in the first place. If they had never declared war, they would have very likely been left alone.

I also don’t think every European with a bit of common sense was happy with Anglo-American intervention. I’m sure that quite a few Norwegians were disappointed. Sweeds as well. The Italians couldn’t have been too thrilled. I’m sure the Polish were happy. Likely quite a few French would have preferred to have not been occupied. I doubt Greenland and Iceland wanted to be occupied. It’s not so cut and dry when you look at it.Belgium and Denmark and the low countries probably didn’t appreciate the risk of being invaded once war was declared.

Since we’re talking about common sense, it’s just plain contradictory to engage in brutality for the sole purpose of defeating a brutal regime. It’s adopting a means which accomplishes the very opposite of the end you are aiming at. It makes no sense to kill innocent ppl to prevent innocent ppl from being killed. But since we live in an Orwellian age of doublethink, I guess ignorance is strength.

Defeating the likes of Hitler is not only a humanitarian issue, it is an issue of defense as well.

We want to see an an-cap society, but in such society alliences between private defense agencies will be crucial. Without such allience violent mafias will easily take over, they will just destroy one PDA after another, starting from the weakest and most vulnerable and ending in the strongest. Thus it would be dangerous to let the mafia or other bad guys to go wild, even in some remote location. The bad guys need to be stopped before they grow too strong. In an an-cap world I would definitely support a war of many PDAs against HItler. Unfortunately in war civilian casualities cannot be avoided. The more you try to avoid them, the more the bad guys will exploit this weakness that you have. As I said before, Hamas terrorist routinely use civilians as shields, they fire from hospital and school rooftops, smuggle weapons in ambulances, send small children to explode, and store ammunion in mosques. This is all the result of Israel trying to minimize civilian causalities. This just gives the terrorists an unfair advantage. Just imagine someone like Hitler or Stalin fighting against libertarians who cannot tolerate civilian causalities. The libertarians would be defeated in a few days as they simply won’t be able to use any tool against Stalin or Hitler, while Stalin and HItler will use all the military technology against them. How can a libertarian with a gun stand against super-sonic bombers, missiles and predator drones?

Eugene: http://mises.org/journals/jls/14_1/14_1_2.pdf read from page 49.

I already read that. Hoppe somehow assumes that there are no bad guys, that people will see how peace loving the libertarians are and will not attack them. That’s just bullshit. There will always be dictators, mercenary forces that will care only about money, religious fanatics that will want to conquer the world, or states that will want to return to their historical glory and grab some more power.

In order to defend against these actors, libertarians will have to use drones, missiles, airplanes, tanks, machine guns, and other military tools, and all of these tools generate collateral damage.

Collateral damage is not generated by weapons. It is generated by people.

I don’t believe Israel tries to minimize civilian casulaties.

Killing civilians gives the opposing force greater support and hardens resistance and leads to reprisal attacks. In fact, all bombing of English cities during WW2 was in retaliation for bombing of German cities.

Justice is more important than humanitarianism and agression can never be justified. And knowingly killing innocent civilians is aggression.

“The Japanese argument for invading China was to defeat the Kai Shek regime and unify East Asia against western imperialism. Where have I heard that one before?”

And to get to resource rich Manchuria.

Eugene,

Churchill was a good guy??? So far as which one to live under, Churchill imposed wartime socialism and fascism on Britain, thus making it easy for the subsequent Labour regime to institutionalize socialism in Britain. Also, Churchill’s bellicosity repeatedly prevented the peace agreement between Germany and Britain that Hitler desperately wanted. Yes, Hitler was a monster, but no, he did not want to rule all of Europe. He repeatedly stated that he wanted to live in peace with Great Britain and invaded Russia to demoralize Britain into agreeing to peace.

Also, you are ignoring that in order to defeat your invincible comic-book super villain Hitler, the Allies allied with a much worse monster, Joseph Stalin, who, at the outset of WW II, had murdered millions, whereas Hitler had murdered hundreds.

Furthermore, your good guy, Churchill, wanted to impose the Communist-inspired Morganthau Plan on Germany, which would have reduced Germany to an agricultural society. Its implementation would have enslaved Germany and caused millions to starve.

In addition, your hero was the first to purposefully murder civilians during the war. He bombed German cities to demoralize the enemy, but as is always the case, these bombings merely hardened German civilians against Britain and probably prevented an earlier peace because Germans wanted to fight to the death to avenge the bombings. The same happens in the Middle East today.

Moreover, the bombings of cities actually wasted valuable British resources, thereby hurting the British war effort.

So what happened because of your hero’s stubborn refusal to come to a peace agreement and his efforts to get FDR to join the war? When the U.S. joined the war, the Nazis, dejected because they knew they had no chance to win, felt they had nothing to lose and imposed the final solution, which didn’t begin until 1942, thus killing at least 6 million people. Before the war, Hitler oppressed and deported Jews, but there was no mass slaughter until he became desperate. Therefore, without Britain’s entry into the war, Hitler probably wouldn’t have invaded France, Norway, Poland, etc., and therefore wouldn’t have had as many Jews to kill.

In addition, your hero’s intervention allowed two much worse tyrants than Hitler to rise to power. Stalin took over much of Hitler’s short-lived empire and certainly imposed infinitely more oppressive regimes on the countries in that empire than Hitler, and Stalin probably killed more Jews than even Hitler. Also, as a result of Stalin’s rise, U.S. support for Chinese Communists, and the unconditional surrender of Japan, Mao rose to power in China and murdered the most people in history.

Additionally, the great Churchill, as previously stated, imposed war socialism on Britain, handing over to the socialists who defeated him after the war the apparatus for a permanent socialist economy that ruined Britain for decades to come.

Let’s not forget that Churchill sent back to Stalin thousands of Russian refugees that he knew would be enslaved and murdered.

What would have happened if Britain didn’t enter the war? Most likely, no Holocaust, no invasion of France, no invasion of Britain, an eventual war with Russia that probably would have ended in a stalemate and weakened both dictators instead of empowering one at the expense of another.

We can’t say for sure what would have happened without British intervention, but we do know what happened as a result – Tens of millions dead, and hundreds of millions handed over to two tyrants much worse than the one defeated.

You fall into the fallacy of Hitler as Darth Vader and the Allies as Luke Skywalker. Though obviously a monstrous oppressor and killer, Hitler was not invincible and was most likely incapable of enslaving Europe, and indeed, before Britain began constantly meddling in Hitler’s affairs, Hitler had no intention of conquering all of Europe anyway! The reality of WW II is much more complex than your simplistic school textbook version of events. The war, like most wars, had no good guys. All governments in this war were bad guys, and just because one might have been worse than another does not justify rooting for one over the other.

As for the euphemism for murder known as “collateral damage,” it is wrong no matter what the circumstances. If you knew a murderer was hiding in building containing 30 innocent people and you bombed the building, you would be guilty of murder nonetheless. Whether this or that government would have won a war without collateral damage (and there’s strong evidence that collateral damage is unnecessary in war and in fact hurts the effort of the government that engages in it) is immaterial. What’s important is that murder is murder.

It is absurd to justify collateral damage by arguing that it’s acceptable because the people in that country hate you. How do you know all of them hate you? Also, since when is hatred a justification for murder? Do you hate all Muslims? Is it acceptable for terrorists to want to kill you if you hate all Middle Eastern people? Do all Jews hate Palestinians? Do all Palestinians hate all Jews? Is it good to encourage this hatred by using it to rationalize murder?

Educate thyself!

Thecommaking wins. Very nicely summed up, I was waiting for an answer like this.

Nonsense. Hitler did give this explanation, but it is incredibly convoluted and easy to see through. Hitler invaded the Soviet Union out of purely ideological reasons and fantasies of conquests in the east from being drunk on power after having achieved hegemony in Europe in June 1940. Hitler after the fall of France is not the same Hitler as before the fall, albeit even in the 1930s Hitler was definetely aiming for Germany to be the dominant power in Europe.

So it was the Allies fault Hitler invaded the Soviet Union? What were they to do? Attack the Soviets themselves so they would not be allied any longer?

The first? Are you joking? Hitler bombed Warsaw long before Churchill bombed Germany. Also Hitler had numerous Poles executed in 1939 already.

Funny, the German advance into Russia was accompanied by Einsatzgruppen and batallions of the uniformed police charged with executing racial and ideological enemies. By the end of 1941 the uniformed police alone had probably killed 800,000 people, most of them Jewish.

What a bunch of crap! Do you have any idea whatsover what Yugoslavia, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia looked like under the Nazis? Do I have to give you a reading list or something?? And please a source on Stalin murdering more Jews than Hitler, that is pathetic. 500.000 Jews fought in the Red Army, 150.000 fell in its ranks. The airing of anti-semitic views was a crime in the Soviet Union that you went to jail for.

And you fall into the fallacy of “lets pinn the maximum amount of crap on US/UK, even if it whitewashes Hitler and the Nazis”. There are ways to critique Churchill’s warmongering without whitewashing Hitler’s. If to support your argument you need to make the Nazis into something they were not (better for Eastern Europe than the Communists for example) you probably need to go back and work on your theory.

Absolutely. Hitler always had two faces. One for Eastern Europe and one for the West. In the West the Nazis were almost civilized (minus Vassieux-en-Vercors, Oradour-sur-Glane, Ardeatine Caves, Civitella Della Chiana and Marzabotto) and very accomodating. But it was a very different picture in the east.

Wow. Commaking nailed the lid down on this thread… welcome to the Mises community. Great post.

Just to expand on commaking’s brief comment regarding British assistance in sending back Soviet refugees, the British and Americans forcibly returned millions of fleeing Soviet refugees to Stalin in an ultra-top-secret operation called Operation Keelhaul. Now, in case you’re not up on your maritime terminology, keel-haul is a form of execution where a person is tied to a rope that passes underneath the keel of a ship and “hauled” under the ship by the crew. As he is drowning to death, his flesh is shredded by the sharp shells of the barnacles cemented to the bottom of the ship. That’s the name the Allies gave their operation to assist “Uncle Joe” (as FDR was fond of calling him) Stalin in repatriating Soviet defectors to be tortured and murdered.

Some heroes.

Clayton -

Apparently no Jews lived in Ukraine in 1932-1933.

You gotta work on your choice of heroes… maybe Jesus was a hero, Buddha could have been a hero, John Wycliffe may have been a hero… Josef Stalin certainly was not and his buddies FDR and Churchill were no heroes, either. All three of them presided over the largest single orgy of mass death and murder ever in human history. They happened to be the victors. While the victors write history, statistics tells us that the victors were usually the initial aggressors, even if they disguised or concealed their aggression… history teaches that the winner of a military conflict was usually the initial aggressor. Rather than inundating yourself with shelves of books expounding the orthodox history of the wars of the 20th century, maybe you should think for yourself and ask yourself just how orthodox the orthodoxy really is.

Clayton -

You have a lot of nerve accusing me of having Stalin for my hero. Is this how you deal with opossing views? Demonisation?

Well that’s not what I meant to convey but I can see how you could take the sentence that way. To clarify, my point is that Churchill and FDR were no heroes as can be clearly seen by who they chose to chum it up with. Surely, you’ve seen the propaganda photos of the three buddies sitting together and palling around? FDR and Churchill were little better than Stalin. All three were nakedly power-hungry.

Clayton -

You don’t have to tell me about Churchill/FDR. Churchill has his own man-made famine to own up to. So guess what, it happens to be I know more about Churchill’s crimes than you do? What is with all the assumptions then?

And you don’t get to come at me with “orthodoxies” either, not while spinning Cold War propaganda tales. Histories of WWII weren’t written in 1944 or 1945. They were written in the ensuing decades during the Cold War when you were shacked up with the Germans and engaged in a bitter propaganda conflict with the Soviets and world Communism. Actually the person who did the most for American understanding of the German-Soviet war is general Franz Halder who happens to have waged it, on the Nazi side.

Thecommaking, you are overcomplicated things. When the British and the French saw someone like Hitler with fantasies of grandure and deadly hate for non Aryans conquering one European state after another, it was their duty to stop him. The Poles and the Czechs have pleaded Britain and France to help. Ignoring the plea of people dear to you is usually considered selfish. I help you, you help me, that’s how it usually works. If the British and American people didn’t help the Europeans, the Europeans wouldn’t help the British and the Americans when they would need their help.

If I were a Polish citizen in the thirties I would be very interested in signing a defense pact with a stronger nation like Britain, because who knows what Hitler has in mind, better be safe than sorry. Poland can’t beat Hitler alone, but with the help of other nations it can.

In an an-cap world I would expect small PDAs to sign such defense pacts with large PDAs, because small PDAs might not be able to defend against mafias and dictators alone, they need some help. These things are mutually advantegous.

Regarding the killing civilians. I am not saying that killing innocent civilians is just, or that it is not murder, it is. But there is no other ways to fight wars. You can’t fight airplanes and missiles with guns, it just doesn’t work.

Absolutely. Hitler always had two faces. One for Eastern Europe and one for the West. In the West the Nazis were almost civilized (minus Vassieux-en-Vercors, Oradour-sur-Glane, Ardeatine Caves, Civitella Della Chiana and Marzabotto) and very accomodating. But it was a very different picture in the east.

I totally agree. This is both a result of his desire to colonize the resource rich East, by killing a good portion of the population and replacing it with Germans, and his nazi racial ideology which went hand in hand with that goal.