Current economics divorced from physics, unscientific.

How long have creationists been around? Whole entire worlds have existed in total darkness. Max planck for instance (wiki):

"As the political climate in Germany gradually became more hostile, Johannes Stark, prominent exponent of Deutsche Physik (“German Physics”, also called “Aryan Physics”) attacked Planck, Sommerfeld and Heisenberg for continuing to teach the theories of Einstein, calling them “white Jews.” The “Hauptamt Wissenschaft” (Nazi government office for science) started an investigation of Planck’s ancestry, but all they could find out was that he was “1/16 Jewish.”

Next, George boole was totally ignored and criticized in his time, yet history bore out long after he had died, that he was correct. Just because you think I am wrong doesnt’ mean you have the intellectual power to know that I am, many great men have failed to be able to distinguish who is rational and who is not, and you would not be the first. The only way you can claim to know this is if you demonstrate where the errors are and point them out.

Just remember: We still have plenty of creationists. Just like galileo upset the former theory of physics and understanding of the universe, so can one man upset and change the understnading of something we thought we fully understood, but only understood it partially, vaguely or not at all. Darwin did the same thing to christianity. If you ask the wrong questions, if you conceive concepts incorrectly you will get the wrong answers. Concepts are the lenses by which we see and interpret the world, if you misconceive a concept, then you’re in trouble from the beginning. Just like the religionists of this world.

Well the message said “this post is under moderation”, so I could only assume that’s what it meant.

I am sure creationists have been around as long as cranks like you have. Was there a point to your rant? No, as usual there was not.

-Jon

All of them. You don’t even know what logic is. It’s a tool, one we cannot do without. See Aristotle’s Organon. See Roderick Long’s Wittgenstein, Austrian Economics, and the Logic of Action

It was in the sense that all messages tagged by the spam filters have to be released from moderation by moderators. But you are not under specific moderation.

Things like too many links, too frequent posts, etc., set it off.

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Too funny. You’re like a practice dummy for training to spot logical fallacies. I’ll agree with you on the point that the current form of money (specifically, fiat currency) is a flawed store of value, but your analysis from that point and your proposed “solutions” are just one gigantic string of non-sequiturs and outright asininities. If fallible individuals shouldn’t be allowed to set their own prices, who should? Are there some infallible people out there of whom I’m not aware? How does one even determine what the “correct” price level of anything should be?

The price mechanism itself is not susceptible of abuse. If you jack up your price to a level that does not represent the true market conditions for that commodity, you’ll lose my business to a competitor. The price system does not give you the power to jack up your competitor’s price, nor the power to compel me to buy from you. You might suppress competition by force, or enlist the state to do so, but that has nothing to do with the price system as such. I did google “financial warfare,” and every page it turned up described states using coercive force to affect the movement of financial assets. That is not a defect in money itself, any more than it would be a defect in wheat per se if states used their power to affect the movement of that commodity.

How exactly does one person acquire the entire world? He can’t possibly homestead a whole planet, even if he were presented with a wholly unowned world to begin. In our world, in which land is already owned by hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people, it’s doubly problematic. The would be Owner of the Earth can produce something of great value and trade it with other land owners for their land, but the more land he acquires, the less its marginal value to him; and conversely, the less land everyone else has, the greater its marginal value to them. Thus, every piece of land he acquires makes the next piece simultaneously less valuable but more costly to him. Since you like physics so much, perhaps I should explain it in an analogy of accelerating a body to a speed approaching that of light.

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Who is “we” and how are “we” to determine how much is the “right” amount of property and/or money for an individual to be allowed to possess? There is no possible mathematical formula that can resolve that question.

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Fascism does require a state, or at least physical coercion. Nobody in this thread but you had advocated that.

You’re also conflating “governing body” with “state,” and the freedom to do something with the power to do it. So, is it intellectual dishonesty you’re practicing, or just extremely sloppy thinking?

I suggest we figure out how to prevent the abuse of the price mechanism as a form of private government and private taxation, by individuals and institutions using commodities and financial instruments as a weapon.

How is this a straw man? Demonstrate that it is please, I submit that the concept of rationality breaks down when setting prices, since our current form of money is a flawed store of value.

They are the same thing in the real world where we actually live, or should I point you in the direction of the lobbyists in washington for a serious dose of reality? Milton friedman told us to be weary of wordsmiths and the idea that political power and economic power are seperate is fallacious, because in the real world they are one and the same thing, I could bring up numerous examples.

So we can accept that all economic transactions are political transactions because they are actions by agents who act. Hence the phrase “Vote with your dollars”, and that the idea that they are seperate is intellectual gymnastics to avoid the double edged nature of economic power.

No it hasn’t been debunked, we can demonstrate that it hasn’t using real world examples of water shortages, those who have water (i.e. goods you need to survive) have power over those who don’t have water, therefore the people that have water have more bargaining power then the people who don’t have water. And if they don’t have anything to trade that the owners want in exchange for water, then they can’t get water. Here is where freedom meets tyranny… if they have nothing to trade, they are dependent on your charity and you have power over whether they starve and suffer or not.

That’s all we need to show the fallacious idea that power and freedom are seperate. Power and freedom are expressions of the same thing, freeom of action, is the POWER to act, to dictate, to dictate an action: Power gives you means to reshape reality. If I only have $10,000 I can’t afford to build a modern jumbo jet for instance. That means I have less means in the real sense of the term.

Ok well let us take a look at what rights are (individual rights – wikipedia) just so we don’t get off track.

“In the jurisprudence and the law, a right is the legal or moral entitlement to do or refrain from doing something, or to obtain or refrain from obtaining a thing or recognition from civil society. Rights serve as rules of interaction between people, and, as such, they place constraints and obligations upon the actions of individuals or groups (for example, if one has a right to life, others cannot have the liberty to kill).”

What rights do we give people, and how do we determine that our rules are not conceptually flawed? I submit that certain rights are conceptually flawed from the outset because of bounded rationality. Because one persons right in one context can be annulled in another context.

Consider the right to self defense, depending on the society you exist in, what is considered self defense will be different from place to place. Not to mention the fact that someones rights can be expanded or contracted based on circumstances… we already do this in the real world. So it shows us we dont universally apply our rights consistently (in every situation) anyway. i.e. we are inconsistent in our application of rights.

Don’t believe this? Then why am I not allowed to own my children? By my right I created them and invested my money and wealth in them, if we say they own themselves, but they didn’t create themselves, I produced them. Now because I produced these children why can’t they be bought and sold as commodity? Oh that’s right because we INCONSISTENTLY apply our rights depending on the context. i.e. we never universally apply our rights, we pick and choose willy nilly depending on the circumstances to grant them or annul them as the situations we find ourselves in dictates.

Look at THAT! Even the formerly biggest jackass on these boards can see that the new kid in town is a jackass. Econolodge, you should be proud. Sort of.

Well there we have it, the whole debate settled by quotes from Friedman and wikipedia, and the musings of econocrank!

-Jon

Sigh. Please don’t cite Wikipedia on rights again. You’re in a libertarian forum. You’ll have to address OUR conception of rights.

Wait, wait, WHOLE ENTIRE worlds?!? WOW!!! Whole entire. Not even the mercy of only a fractionally entire world, or even a whole partial world. Horrible.

Thank God you’re here to represent for the atheist religion. Guys, I really do think he’s representative of your mindset and dizzying logic. Dizzying.

Then define what a right is, in your own words, right now. Because if you’re not using the standard definition then you’ve just made up your own legal system of rights that we do not use currently. Give me your definition of what a right is. That should be very simple, keep it simple. All I need to know is the general definition of how you define the term right. What in your opinion is a right?

Yes Geoffrey, RIGHT NOW, because the troll said so.

-Jon

Go educate yourself, you lazy bum.

We use the right definition.

No. Not just made up. What are you, a positivist? Whatever currently exists must be right?

Read Ethics of Liberty for starters. You’re too uninformed about libertarianism to carry on a discussion in this forum. Learn the basics first. Then come back for discussion.

Oh yes, well, since he said so, I guess I better drop my dissertation (and risk my wife divorcing me) to tutor this dolt fulltime for the next few years.

I didn’t say we can’t let people set prices, note that I qulaified my statement and I’ll quote myself “I don’t disagree with people setting prices..”, I qualified that statement by the following: How do we prevent abuse of the price mechanism? The abuse of the price mechanism is the point where freedom meets fascism.

This assumes competitors won’t form cartels or monopolies, how do we prevent secret agreements and cartels? Again the idea that some businesses won’t do this if we dissolve government is living in a fantasy world. They are going to form cartels and agree to fix prices, wal-mart was caught selling knock off goods link – WAL-MART TO PAY HILFIGER $6.4M FOR SELLING COUNTERFEIT GOODS.(Brief Article)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4298/is_199907/ai_n14980710

The point was to demonstrate the principle that the price mechanism can be abused by actors, you’ve missed the point. That businesses can and do collude for economic gain and there is no way this could be effectively checked in a society without a government, corporations would quickly become the new governing institutions, with many of the same problems of real governments.

You assume that the problem is not solvable, I don’t assume such things. No one “we” (i.e. human beings) have never attempted to seriously look at the issue.

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But businesses are states in the miniature (or not so minature if you look at corporate profits when compared to GDP of other less developed countries), i.e. they are instutitons and organizations of people and property that submit to laws, rules of conduct, contracts, etc, authority, police, etc.

Whoever has authority to enforce violence and contracts is a government by definition, who are going to run the police? And what if one needs an army, and prisons, etc? Who the hell is going to be invested with the authority and power to do this? And whomever is doing this is by definition a government de facto. Period. Whoever is doing this becomes a government by definition of being able to enforce these laws and rights.

You claimed that I didn’t understand the concept of rights, you said yours were different so it’s up to YOU to explain them to ME because in our current world we do not use your conception of rights so therefore because your rights are not the standard, therefore the burden is on you to inform me. Not vice versa, you are not being intellectually gracious here

Can you demonstrate this for me please? State the definition, summarize it, don’t refer me to a work, that’s not what you do in a discussion, you summarize it’s main points and demonstrate it.

You said that the definition of rights in an encyclopedia was wrong, so that tells me, you are not using the current definitions of rights as we use them today in modern society, so the burden naturally, falls upon the one who’s conception of rights and rules are not being practiced in society. You can’t claim that I am lazy when I live in a society that uses a different definition of rights then the people here. You claimed that your conception of rights (or rather reconception of rights) were different from the current definition, so are they different or not?

Uninformed I am not, ignorant of your definition of rights I may be. If you have read and understood the ethics of liberty then just summarize it’s main points, tell me in your own words what it says, and summarize it in a paragraph. I’ve got enough on my plate and you are the people making the claims here that I don’t understand, so just demonstrate it by summarizing it’s main points. It’s dishonest for you to refer me to some intellectual work, when you should just be summarizing the main points of what it says, That’s all I’m asking here so I have something to work with. I will go read it on my own time, but in argumentation it’s bad form all around.

  1. Wikipedia is not “society”. There is no one definition of rights used by philosophers. So no, the burden is on you to educate yourself on this matter, if you’re going to post here. You’re challenging the Austrian paradigm, so the burden is all on you to familiarize yourself with it, which you have not done.

  2. No one has an obligation to be “intellectually gracious” to you. This isn’t a charity, especially since you rant. So yes, you are a lazy bum, too lazy to do the basic groundwork reading necessary to debate these topics. Hence, if anyone responds to you it is out of pure good will, not because you deserve to be answered.

-Jon

Oh I suppose ALL the people who contributed to that article are non-experts and non-scholars in their respective fields, I really really doubt that you stupid ass, now stop being a troll. I can go to any lawyer and legalist and ask him if they are valid.

Dumbass, you didn’t get the implication, YOU GUYS claimed I was wrong, it is up to YOU to demonstrate your position on an issue, because you’re saying “Book xyz says you are wrong”, no one would ever accept that bullshit at the upcoming conference and you can be certain of that, You people can get away with this shit on the internet because it’s the internet but you would never do such a thing in front of an audience, in a public debate. It’s not too much to expect people to summarize their positions and their opinions when they make a claim to my error, in order to demonstrate using their own concepts and values that I am wrong. So the only answer is: You guys have no valid claims.

OK, I say kill the thread and ban his ass.