It’s like, when atheist talks with theist, and theist claims there is a god, atheist asks for proof and the only “proof” theist has is “eye is irreducibly complex it could not have evolved naturally”. Which is by the way false and was debunked many times, but that’s beside the point. Point is - start thinking critically, for God’s or Universe’s sake. Thank you
fox “news” and one of their embedded “witnesses”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0wHeekgPqk
every psy-op has its bloopers:
Newson, you are trolling or just too much invested in the issue so that you can’t stop until you convince everyone on the internet that 9/11 was inside jos or something similar?
P.S. I don’t deny the possibility, that US gov or some officials knew what was coming and did nothing to stop it.
How is it that the government is incompetent and inept at everything except massive secret conspiracies? Do not mistake idiocy and incompetence for malice and forethought.
to maiku:
why should the possibility of an inside job worry you, the libertarian?
to xahrx:
governments can work with private individuals, agencies, companies quite efficiently to achieve its own ends. they been remarkably successful in infantilizing almost the entire population, and robbing them into the bargain. i’d say that’s quite something. also, not many people actually know all of a military operation. it’s compartmentalized, need-to-know, etc.
Government is much more competent and adept at things than you think - it just doesn’t have the goals you think it does. 
On the thread topic:
I watched a documentary on The National Geographic Channel some months back about the events of 9/11. Part of it involved an experiment to find out whether the “pancake theory” was valid. A steel beam was placed over a pool of kerosene. The beam had the same specs as the horizontal support beams in WTC 1 and 2. It was also loaded per the specs. Thermocouples were attached to the beam and then the kerosene was ignited. The steel never melted, but it ultimately weakened and collapsed under its load - well under its melting point. It was this experiment that convinced me that the controlled-demolition theory was unnecessary and distracted from more important issues.
looking at the lack of ground debris, and vast clouds of micronized glass, steel, concrete, there’s way too much energy required than could have come from kinetic sources alone (the towers fell pretty well at free-fall in any case). something of extraordinary power must have been used. i mean, particulates so fine they floated up into the upper atmosphere (see satellite shots). only the most advanced military forces could have access to technology like this, whatever it may be.
9/11 was the event that did more to move the us and the rest of the western world to police states, so i don’t see it as a distraction at all. i can walk and chew gum at the same time.
1] How do you know the “experiment” was not rigged to produce that result?
2] As Mr Holmgren points out [1st post] :
" …But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly-discovered shockingly destructive qualities of kerosine. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant vertical collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning kerosine.
For this, it’s necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosine which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. You see, the kerosine not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball, vapourizing a 65 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000 deg C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper’s steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building.
When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn’t make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosine is enough to: completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft; have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel (melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel), and still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building.
This kerosine really is remarkable stuff! "
Regards, onebornfree
It doesn’t, and actually, to be honest, I would love if it was inside job and it was possible to PROVE that US gov was responsible for this. But now I see only ordinary conspiracy theories with no substance… imaginary planes, jews, controlled demolitions and bribed thousands of people… To my skeptical head and bullshit detector that’s too much.
Excuses and BS as far as I’m concerned. The government and its contractors can’t be horrible and inept at everything and yet pull off massive conspiracy after conspiracy after conspiracy, etc. The sheer amount of information and people that would need to cooperate to control that kind of information getting out simply isn’t workable via central planning. Well intentioned to vapid idiots and general incompetence are more than enough to explain any of the issues I’ve seen raised. And you can’t have it both ways. If the government can mastermind and execute such a ridiculously huge conspiracy then it shouldn’t have any problems with the water supply, electricity, and the sewage. And yet as anyone can see even those seeming basics are beyond the government’s ability to control or deliver with any degree of competence. I wouldn’t trust the majority of government workers to drop a turd where it belongs, even with the proper forms filled out. I seriously think you need to give the institution another look, and not underestimate the sheer magnitude and scope of the screw ups you can accomplish with that many idiots spinning in place trying to catch their own asses.
i can think of plenty of episodes that worked out fine for the state, despites its inefficiencies. gulf of tonkin, pearl harbor, wmd’s in iraq (ii), babies in incubators iraq (i), etc.
the state is quite good as destroying things, lying, managing its lies, and keeping secrets or getting rid of those who can’t. (what do we really know about what happened in panama,and the real relationship with the us and noriega? the list is long.)
pity the national geographic didn’t do a special on the naudet brothers. i’d suggest a title like “who are they really, and where are they now?”
http://www.frankresearch.info/Naudet911/JULES%20NAUDET%20Home%20Page.htm
on a balance of probablilities basis, i’d call them perps.
If 911 was an inside job, would your argument not be exactly the same? Should we not stick with the evidence surrounding 911? It sounds to me like an excuse to ignore the facts, correct me if I’m wrong.
Same argument as above. You then do nothing but insult the critical thinking skills of your peers. Conclude from this as you will.
Could you please explain to me why there is thermitic material in the dust of the world trade center buildings?
I long time ago lost interest in fiding debunking info about 9/11 and then explaining that to conspiracy theorists one by one, actually, I don’t have sources now at all, but what you seem to call “critical thinking” is actually called “magical thinking” and other logical fallacies and biases.
You only look for confirmation of your agenda but ignore the counter evidence and arguments by skeptics. How many “debunking 9/11” websites have you carefully read if any? Have you tried to explain it in rational way or just tried to find a loopholes where to insert your conspiracy “oh they didn’t explain that, they ignored that, it’s obvious they are hiding something!”?
anyone who believes that communism can’t work is suffering mental illness. trust me.
"Daniel Ellsberg: “Secrets … Can Be Kept Reliably … For Decades … Even Though They Are Known to THOUSANDS of Insiders”
famed whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg explains:
It is a commonplace that “you can’t keep secrets in Washington” or “in a democracy, no matter how sensitive the secret, you’re likely to read it the next day in the New York Times.” These truisms are flatly false. They are in fact cover stories, ways of flattering and misleading journalists and their readers, part of the process of keeping secrets well. Of course eventually many secrets do get out that wouldn’t in a fully totalitarian society. But the fact is that the overwhelming majority of secrets do not leak to the American public. This is true even when the information withheld is well known to an enemy and when it is clearly essential to the functioning of the congressional war power and to any democratic control of foreign policy. The reality unknown to the public and to most members of Congress and the press is that secrets that would be of the greatest import to many of them can be kept from them reliably for decades by the executive branch, even though they are known to thousands of insiders.
History proves Ellsberg right. See: " http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/daniel-ellsberg-secrets-can-be-kept.html
Regards,onebornfree.
operation northwoods was discovered by chance years after the main protagonists were dead.
Note that the no-planer believers are considered as nuts, bananas even among the 911 truther movement
And so why have you posted in this thread at all, when you have no interest in finding or discussing information?
I think it’s self evident who’s doing that here.
Care to explain the thermitic material?
That use to be a reasonable hypothesis at the time until new information came up. This hypothesis never would have surfaced if the government was more open with information. It’s still not entirely clear what hit the Pentagon, and the no plane theory concerning the twin towers has always been wrong, as were the “high energy weapons” and “nuclear bomb” theories.
It is very natural and honest to change ones theory as more information becomes available.
These theories are still floating around so for the betterment of mankind…
Twin Towers:
Pentagon plane witnesses: