Defence in anarchy

As to the question of common caliburs, I’m fairly certain the market would choose a mix, just as it does in other areas. Take computing, for example. Most personal computers operate under the Windows on an Intel chip. Some people buy MacIntosh, some people install Linux, and this margin of early adopters and tinkerers keep that central standard on its toes without fragmenting the platform beyond a level of essential utility. I suspect the same would be true with firearms: economies of scale being what they are, most people would use the cheaper, easier to use, more popular guns and ammo. But you’d still have a margin of tinkerers and early adopters looking for something more effective or just plain cool, testing out other ideas.

As to where average citizens would receive military training in more advanced weaponry, my thinking is that the Anarcho-Capitalist assumption is that people aren’t complete morons. Even in the absence of a coercive state, you’d still have a lot of people seeking to support some kind of military establishment. A community’s top level military capacity could be a voluntarily funded corps that would act as a “first response” force, while the people at large are busy getting themselves ready to join the fight.

To address your own scenario, we have, first, to address the likelyhood of the scenario, and the precise form it would take if the US were an anarchist zone rather than a semi-republican police state. You have to ask the question, why are they invading? There’s no need to knock out our ability to respond if they should attempt to assert control over Taiwan, for example. There’s no US president backed by a US military to selectively press for human rights reforms. There’s no immigration policy preventing the peaceful arrival of Chinese immigrants, nor a trade policy preventing Chinese merchants from trading peacefully or Chinese businessmen from establishing operations. There is very little incentive to invade in force.

And even if they did, there’s no central authority to knock out with military force; any invasion faces the question of “where do we strike?” They could temporarily take territory, but the expense of maintaining that beach-head (this is a trans-Pacific operation, after all) would most likely be more than could be extracted from the area. In the absence of psychologically satisfying victories against clear targets, I wonder how long the Chinese government could justify the expense, before the drain on resources emboldened their own foreign and domestic enemies. It was Chinese military theorist Sun Tzu who warned that protracted warfare weakened the State and emboldened what is sometimes translated “The Feudal Lords”. It was the Spartans who discovered the hard way that when the soldiers are away, the Helots revolt.

Finally, a free society is heavily enmeshed in trade with its neighbors. The Chinese would face not only higher expenses, but declining revenues as a result of disrupting trade between the former United States and China.

Anyone can in fact go to a private organization to learn how to fly a plane. They do exist, and the licensing is for the gratification of the state. As far as learning to fly an F-22 is concerned, if a private organization had access to this kind of weapon (which they very much do not, at least the kind used for war), it would benefit them to teach people how to fly them.

The military chooses common calibre weapons all the time. There is common weapons, then also weapons for specific jobs. In the hands of private citizens, I don’t imagine that would change. A very common calibre weapon is a 9mm. There is a bunch of manufacturers that produce 9mm guns and ammunition. Something like this would most likely be common place in a private community/organization, but the market would fill individual needs as well. If the need arose for .45 ACP for instance, the market would fill that. And as production of these guns becomes more common, the price would also fall, allowing for more firearms of the desired calibre to end up in more hands.

Since war does not benefit anyone but the state, there might very well be no reason for invasion. In an open market, we would of course be more than willing to exchange goods and services with anyone willing to pay money or resources for them. And if for some reason a nation state felt like invading, they would have to deal with a completely armed society. Every American would not only have their right to bear arms secured, they might very well be encouraged to own a gun or guns. Also, I would imagine the majority of people would in fact become proficient at using their guns as well. That changes things signicantly as far as plans for invasion are concerned. We are talking about 325 million armed ready citizens, a complete nightmare for any invasion force. It would make America completely unassailable.

Thank you both (Justin, and DA for your answers).

Also, we are not talking 325 million armed citizens. We have to take into account the old, sick, and children.

As far as why there would be such an attack in the first place, we are only assuming the US was an Ancap state. We are not assuming the rest of the world is as well. So any number of imperialist powers may have reason for a seemingly unprovoked attacked. Germany’s attack on Luxembourg during WW2 is a good example. It was a neutral nation, with no intention of entering into war with Germany.

As history has shown us, people, whether they be in our country, or another, are hungry for power and land. In my uncompleted scenario (thanks, broken edit button) we were assuming China had some crazy plan for world domination, starting first with the US.

Once again, though, thank you both, this is an area where I was really struggling to comprehend the ancap approach, as I had not seen any relevant material on the subject.

You are absolutely right, sorry, I get a little excited about the subject, thanks for setting me strait.

It was more than a pleasure. I used to struggle a bit with this concept myself. I used to want to believe it so bad, but I was not completely sure about how many things would be accomplished. Keep reading. Eventually, you will see the entire world in terms of this very thought pattern. In a lot of cases, it is almost simplistic to imagine how it would work without state intervention. There is a shortage of material in the main stream, but it is slowly making itself known. Some people are far too fearful, ignorant, or a combination of both to even entertain the idea that less is more when it comes to state intervention.

Is the state morally defendable if rational egoism is more important than the non-aggression principle?

I am afraid I don’t really understand the question. If your primary concern is your own welfare, then the state is going to be your largest obstacle in doing what is best for yourself. It’s not like egoism exists only where the non-aggression principle does not. You can be a firm believer in the non-aggression principle and do what is best for yourself. It more or less takes recognition that getting what you want through violence is not good for yourself or society.

No one brought up common law (or customary law) or Merchant Law? These are two examples of legal systems created and maintained without a government. Common law is especially interesting because it is a process that develops consistent laws and procedures over time, based upon precedent and judgement. Law is “discovered” instead of legislated.

As for investigation, custody, etc., private businesses develop and use standards all the time, and I see no reason why private law enforcement would be an exception.

Here are two outstanding articles on common/customary law. The first explains why society already owes much of its stability to common law and why the State is unnecessary. The second goes deeper into the workings and evolution of common law as a Hayekian spontaneous order - a free market in law.

The Obviousness of Anarchy

The Depoliticization of Law

On the topic of defense, the author writes:

Fascinating topic.

My one question is: does the NAP always preclude preemptive military force?

For example, if in the future the current West is an ANCAP society, and an external closed rogue state acquires nuclear weapons, are there any scenarios where a PDA (I guess it would be a PAA in this case) would be justified in forcibly dispatching the threat? Or would the ANCAP society’s only recourse be to increase defensive measures and/or attempt to exert peaceful economic pressure, until the rogue state actually initiated a conflict?

If a whole society ever went ANCAP, then you would have to assume its citizenry would be fully aware of the dangers of a state system. Being aware of the destruction a state is capable of unleashing, wouldn’t the populace generally appraise a rogue state as being a clear and present danger to their property, and possibly be open to contributing towards funding such a preemptive strike?

I guess this raises a larger question. In a mixed system of ANCAP societies and States, would utilitarian ethics like the NAP only apply between ANCAP societies? In what ways should the ANCAP societies take different approaches to dealing with States compared to dealing with eachother?

Anyone who possesses an operational nuke is a threat. We can debate what an “illegitimate state” is (see this), but given a state is deemed illegitimate, anyone, say a private military within the free society, could use force against that state’s ruling elite.

There is nothing wrong with people or companies of a free society trading with stated societies. The same basic rules apply as for people within that society. See the above link for what is legitimate market activity.

So please explain how a Militia can resist against nuclear weapons or against a well trained and organised army? See: the afghans people have no real state. But all these guys can have a new AK and defend their own village against invaders (they are use to, they already did against the Soviets in the 1970-80s). So they form a kind of militia.

However as you can see on TV they cannot defeat the US army. Why? because they have guns against F22 and againts a powerfill army. They only survive because the goal is to “pacify” the region, not to destroy it all.

Militia is a popular defence army, but remains historically highly un-effective against any structured and technologically advanced modern army: see the “republican militia” fighting against dictator Franco supported by Hitler and Mussolini in 1930s in Spain, see Natives armies fighting against Yankees in the US in XIXth century, see anarchists federation in eastern “Juras” montains in France in the XIXth century, see palestinians warriors against Tsahal, see afghan warriors against Coalition Forces… technology and structuration are the keys for military success. Without external military back up from a structurated modern armh, Militia is doomed to loose or to degenerate into a civil war… what do you think?

I’m quite surprise: I’not sure that the “Swiss Army” can ever be considered as a “model” for any efficient defence forces. Historically Swiss generally decided NOT to fight (WW1, WW2, WWhatever)… Swiss soldiers are only famous… for being employed by the Vatican as the personal guard of the Pope. That’s all.

Definition: are you talking about “militia”? “conscription”? or “guerilla”? These are different things :

-“conscription” means that all citizens (or randomly sorted citizens) have to give 1 or 2 or more years of their life as soldiers fighting in the national army. It’s so in Swiss, in Israel, and in most of the developping countries (including most of the communist countries). Conscription allows the state to (i) generate a feeling of common destiny among citizen as they all participate at one moment to the national defence forces. If any war happen, their duty is to join the army when their cohort is called (usually, trainged guies go first, then newbies, then oldies, then the others). Most of the modern states (Germany, UK, France, Western European countries in general), decided to shift from conscription to professional armies in the 2000s (to save public funds mainly, as well as considering the risk of warfare is lower after the end of the cold war).

-“militia” means that local citizens have access to weapons and can form a local defence gang, in order to defend his/her land. Militia can exist aside the state army or in replacement for the state army when there is no proper state. For example in countries where there is no state you can find militias: Somalia, Afghanistan (no state out of the Capital District), but also in newborn states like the 13 colonies before it became the US, or in countries where the state has been challenged and is still down (after a coup, or after a revolution).

  • “guerilla” is just a possible mode among other tactics/fighting strategies. Guerilla is based on small groups of soldiers harassing a regular army through rapid attack-and-disappear actions. Guerilla tactics can be used by both state army (through commando activities) and Militia (as anyway by nature they are formed by smaller groups than a regular state army). Guerilla is usually used by the army with lower resources (in terms of men, weapons, etc) and has a lower cost for the defencers.

any defencers group in the world, wheter it is militia or state regular army, share this same goal of “common goal, which is defense” that cannot be used as a criteria to define what is a Militia…

some remarks as it is uncorrect here:

  • “One is the logical one that a society without government is a society without nations”… not so logical as there are a lot of example of Nations without Governments or without a State in this world. Examples? Palestinians, Kurds, Basks, Gypsis, and a few years or decades ago Kosovars, Bosnians, jewishs…

  • Anarchy, as a model for political organisation of the society suffers from the need of simultaneous shift to global anarchy (and educated) systems in one shot, as there can’t be peacefull co-existence of both anarchists and non anarchists systems at the same time (based on evolution law, anarchist cities or countries are under a permanent treat of being invaded and integrated to non anarchist countries.

historically, anarchist ministers even participated to democratic governments (they gained the Ministry of Justice in the Republican Government in Spain during the civil war (1936-39), or in Russia some years before.

But historically also, all country or region that lived under anarchism for a while (i mean here “organised” anarchism, not “chaos” as it is too often understood) were militarily defeated by a non-anarchist system that invaded them…

It is good to see people bringing up nuclear weapons.

  1. I don’t see the free rider question as a big problem, because any Heathian Anarchist community that is large enough will have incentive to purchase nuclear weapons.

  2. I do think, however, that nuclear weapons are more problematic because to use them will require violating the non-aggression principal. So if Russia nukes us, a security agency must kill innocent people to maintain deterrence. I wish Kinsella would post on this topic.

I think this is an example where one would have to say aggression is a necessary evil.

I made a pretty long post in the appropriate thread about nukes which might interest you re: #2. I don’t see why “Heathian anarchy” would exist versus non-territorial-monopolies except in isolated secular communities or maybe a charter city.

“I don’t see why “Heathian anarchy” would exist versus non-territorial-monopolies except in isolated secular communities or maybe a charter city.”

I think anarchist communities that are large and territorial will have advantages over non-territorial systems.

If you’re living next to me and I’m paying for a nuclear weapons system, you’re getting the benefits of my system without paying the cost. The Russians won’t nuke you because their afraid of my retaliation. So you are a free rider. You and I might both decided to not purchase nuclear weapons systems and just hope some rich guy on the block does so.

On the other hand, if a businessman comes in and turns our block into a gated community, with everyone renting, there are no free riders. So he can pay for the nuclear weapons system that protects everyone on the block. And this principle holds for a block, why not for an area as big as the United States?

To be designed effectively, this large anarchist community might not allow people to live close the edges of the community. That way if a nuclear strike hits an adjacent area, the anarchist community would be (relatively) unaffected. It would then be able to match payments from customers(those joining the community) to the service being provided.(Nuclear weapons protection).

And this principle holds for a block, why not for an area as big as the United States?

It would be a huge problem for a single company to try to legitimately acquire all that land. Read The Myth of National Defense regarding the free-rider problem. I’m sure it’s linked somewhere in this thread.

“It would be a huge problem for a single company to try to legitimately acquire all that land”

By huge problem, do you mean it might have adverse results or that it is unlikely it would occur.

I certainly don’t think a large company like this would have to acquire all of the land in an area the size of the united states. If they could control 95% they could easily reduce the free rider problem to an acceptable level.

Not necessarily. Darwinism is both a scientific and a philosophical leaning. Austrians could personally brand themselves as Darwinians, but that doesn’t necessarily flow into their interpretation of economic data. However, it might. And if it does, you’re looking at a very Hobbesian portrait of economic reality.

I just lost 4 paragraphs doing a reply. Screw it.

To all those who have no knowledge of anarchy and are bringing up the same old tired questions; you made me laugh. I suggest you learn the subject before debating it, it is after all just common courtesy.

To all those who actually do know, you folks are more patient and willing to teach than me. Debating (more like smashing with the hammer of truth) hardly seems worth while when they cannot be troubled to do some basic research on their own, that behavior is usually typical of folks who care not to learn because their mind is settled on the issue.