Dictatorship

I agree, too :slight_smile:

They are only oppressive when you don’t agree with the collective or are forced/coerced to abide by their decisions.

I would add a correction. If I enter into co-op by signing a contract that all decisions about my share of property in co-op are made by majority vote of the members, then there is no oppression/aggression even if later I do not agree with the specific decisions - basically, because I willingly surrendered title to this property to the co-op. Now, states do not have explicit contracts, and also they make decisions about my life and liberty, which some people think are not alienable property, so title to them could not be transferred to the state even if I wanted.

If this is a common usage on Mises… I will try to integrate that into my readings/understandings. I wasn’t taking it for granted. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the explanation. We certainly do agree, completely, on these points.

Muahahaha, and now I will add my correction!

If I agree, up front, that if I should decide to leave the group, that I owe the group some amount of money, I would not consider it aggressive. However, being threatened or otherwise aggressed against should I decide to withdraw from the group, would make that group “oppressive/aggressive.” If I don’t agree with a decision or the enforcement of that decision upon my property I should always have the ability to leave, unmolseted to the extent that I didn’t already agree… i.e. early termination fees like you find in contracts with cell phone carriers and sattelite television providers.

Entering into a co-op does not, in my opinion, inherently mean I have transferred title of my property. I have simply leased use and decision making authority over my property for the duration of my contract.

I agree with everything you said here.

My statement that “I willingly surrendered title to this property” was based in assumption that the co-op’s bylaws forbid withdrawal or transfer of your investment from the co-op (which is sufficiently common in my experience, especially if you want to do that on a short notice). Of course, if there is no such provision, then I am free to withdraw my property, and any prevention of me doing this is an act of aggression.

To put it in one phrase, this depends on the contract.

I think this would have to be worded very carfully, because I think that it sort of flirts with the whole “voluntary slavery” thing… But worded properly, I could see a contract reading “non-refundable transfer of property title as payment for membership in co-op.” Though… admittedly, I think that this sort of arrangement would either be very rarely entered into or would lose popularity quickly once people were more accutely aware of the consequences.

Otherwise, you’re right. It could very easily be worded into the contract such that it isn’t “oppressive” and is “voluntary.”

then I would think you would probably be in the minority amongst Austrians. Seems to me, most agree with Hoppe in his preference for monarchy over democracy. Why do you think democracy is better?

The problem here is that Rand treats a “nation” like a homogenous lump, which simply isn’t the case. Furthermore, she doesn’t distinguish between “free” and “not-free”.

Now, a bit of a harder situation:

Imagine you run, say, an oil company in Libertastan. Libertastan is either minarchist or an anarcho-capitalist voluntary state (at least, it functions as a state rather than a PDA. The people within it all consent to be within this pseudo-state, and can effectively secede if they don’t want to be within it (though they lose benefits from this, such as protection by Libertastan’s police and military forces, leaving them open to attacks by non-Libertastani criminals).

Anyway, you discover vast quanities of oil in Laytria, a different country similar in nature to, say, the USA or one of the European nations. With permission of the property owners (this is not a communist dictatorship, the state does not run the oil rigs like in Venezuela), you set up rigs and begin producing oil (presumably you pay a portion of the profits to the owners of the property, assuming you didn’t simply buy their land), making great profits.

Laytria then elects a socialistic government. They “nationalize” your land, kick out those workers who won’t work for them, and steal whatever oil you left behind.

Is it justified for Libertastan to respond with a declaration of war, as Laytria is engaging in blatant thievery against a Libertastani citizen (on a larger scale, mind, but if an individual tried to “nationalize” an oil rig he would be dealt with severely, and it is generally hel among Libertarians that government’s should usually be held to the same standard)? Or is the oil company itself justified in organizing Libertastani volunteers and mercenaries and forcibly attacking Layria? Or is there some other solution?

Because this is one of the problems we ought to address. Do coercive nation states operate on the same plane of existance as voluntary states/PDAs, justifying intervention by the second against the first, or are the first simply able to push the others around with their broken moral code?

That’s a good question because it gets to the heart of the scope of morally acceptable retaliatory action within both a Randian and Rothbardian ethical framework.

First though, I am not sure what you mean by Rand’s treating the nation as a homogenious lump here. We can’t just look at that section in a vacuum, but in its entirety as a chapter within a book here, it’s clear that she doesn’t treat groups of individuals as entities in themselves. That kind of was the entire point of that particular chapter on collectivized “rights.” Earlier in the chapter to the quoted portion, she states:

Since only an individual man can possess rights, the expression “individual rights” is a redundancy (which one has to use for purposes of clarification in today’s intellectual chaos). But the expression “collective rights” is a contradiction in terms. Any group or “collective,” large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members.

In a free society, the “rights” of any group are derived from the rights of its members through their voluntary, individual choice and contractual agreement, and are merely the application of these individual rights to a specific undertaking. Every legitimate group undertaking is based on the participants’ right of free association and free trade.

Further she says:

The notion of “collective rights” (the notion that rights belong to groups, not to individuals) means that “rights” belong to some men, but not to others—that some men have the “right” to dispose of others in any manner they please—and that the criterion of such privileged position consists of numerical superiority. Nothing can ever justify or validate such a doctrine—and no one ever has.

Like the altruist morality from which it is derived, this doctrine rests on mysticism: either on the old-fashioned mysticism of faith in supernatural edicts, like “The Divine Right of Kings”—or on the social mystique of modern collectivists who see society as a super-organism, as some supernatural entity apart from and superior to the sum of its individual members.

The amorality of that collectivist mystique is particularly obvious today in the issue of national rights. A nation, like any other group, is only a number of individuals and can have no rights other than the rights of its individual citizens.

I don’t know what you mean by Rand not distinguishing between “free” and “not-free” because she states in the same section:

A free nation… recognizes, respects and protects the individual rights of its citizens… The government of such a nation is not the ruler, but the servant or agent of its citizens and has no rights other than the rights delegated to it by the citizens for a specific, delimited task (the task of protecting them from physical force, derived from their right of self-defense).

In other words, freer nations respect rights to a greater extent. Dictatorships however, are nations that don’t recognize this principle, and wield unlimited power over its citizens, she goes on to list four essential characteristics of a dictatorship.

As for your scenario, it would seem that in a Randian framework, if the socialist country refused to respect the property rights of the capitalist country’s citizens, that is, refused to listen to the capitalist country’s complaints and kept the expropriated oil fields and equipment, etc. then the capitalist country is justified in retaliatory force in order to attain justice and remove the threat of the socialist country to its citizens. In this framework, that which will keep Americans free should be the standard of the free nation’s politics, which in foreign policy requires only that the government use retaliatory force against external aggressors as the means to which maintaining the security and liberty of American citizens is the end. If having a socialist government take property makes some Americans less free, then retaliation is in order.

Rand argued that the West was gravely mistaken to abandon the property rights of Western oil companies in the Middle East, and that it should have asserted these rights and protected them against nationalizations by local governments. Peikoff made a similar argument in a NYT article “End States Who Sponsor Terrorism” saying:

Fifty years ago, Truman and Eisenhower surrendered the West’s property rights in oil, although that oil rightfully belonged to those in the West whose science, technology, and capital made its discovery and use possible. The first country to nationalize Western oil, in 1951, was Iran. The rest, observing our frightened silence, hurried to grab their piece of the newly available loot.

As for an anarcho-capitalist defense agency, the problem is similar. Because the agency is funded voluntarily and staffed by voluntarily employed soldiers, it doesn’t make whatever the actions this agency takes automatically right. It still needs to be defined when retaliation can be proper for this agency, as well as the Randian type of government, where that force is equally voluntarily funded and staffed, and those who want no part of it can effectively secede by ignoring it.

There is still the question of non-combatants in the socialist nation’s territory. In the Rothbardian framework, it is illegitimate to cause any collateral damage whatsoever, so your question about one’s moral code allowing him to get pushed around is legitimate. Without appeal to a philosophical basis in ethics, we have no answer to the question of whether or not this amounts to self-sacrifice. Suppose one is being aggressed against and the only way he can defend himself would happen to hurt a non-combatants in the enemy’s territory, is it legitimate to do so? Answering this is necessary for practical guidance to an individual’s right of self-defense to both anarcho-capitalist and Objectivist cases. It is clear in the Randian framework, if the actions undertaken by a government in the name of self-defense are not legitimate for an individual to undertake in self-defense, then those actions must be condemned as morally improper. But at the same time, if it is morally licit for an individual to take an action in defense of himself, then it is morally licit for the collective use of force by a group of them, since they have only the rights of their individual members.