Don't buy Bitcoins (video)

The most important property of money, that something is spendable, is based on belief. In a free market anything can be money.

We have claimant A asserting Bitcoins aren’t money because they can’t fill an empty Walmart warehouse. Arguing from the regression theory of the most widely used commodity is the most spendable. It’s a good thing a Walmart example was used because who can save inflated fiat money to make an inventory purchase in the millions? Bitcoin is obviously a market outcome. There are dyamics at work in which people are freely choosing to value the decentralized, crytographic properties of Bitcoins over dollars. The regression theory obviously does not account for the Bitcoin phenomenon. Just what does the regression theory have to say exactly on valuing a labor commodity? Or a labor commodity that is heavily taxed?

If you want to make a valid argument tell me when Bitcoins aren’t going to be money because a free market without coercion is going to come into existence and challenge the reasons people presently value Bitcoins. If you do not have an answer to that, I suggest you yield to the existing coercive market valuation of Bitcoin. I agree if a free market emerging was on the horizon Bitcoin would be a highly risky investment. I personally think Bitcoin has a very healthy future in the underground economy. I can envision tobacco, alchohol, or any other luxury item heavily taxed being traded in Bitcoins.

Let’s take pot. Right now the marajuana producer is going to accumlate Bitcoins. If the pot consumer can purchase Bitcoins from the marajuana producer in dollars and then turn right around and purchase pot using Bitcoins… how does the marajuana producer lose? The concept of money changer could be completely revamped by Bitcoin. You might go to one vendor where you can purchase bitcoins from the producers you want to purchase goods from.

The only thing government can do to easily intervene is outlaw Bitcoins, which is as difficult as outlawing P2P. P2P isn’t still around because Hollywood and the Music industry love P2P. P2P isn’t still around because major P2P search engines or developers haven’t been sued…

Regarding the false/flag mole comment… Try commenting on some topics other than Bitcoin during your tenure at Mises.org. I did see you take a Glenn Beck tangent a few pages into your post history then it’s all Bitcoin before that as well. As I was scanning that post history did you mention you are a Bitcoin forum moderator?

How do you measure belief? Action baby. Try levying a false/flag mole accusation when your actions are credible…

Disclaimer. I am holding neither metal or Bitcoins.

The most important property of money, that something is spendable, is based on belief. In a free market anything can be money.

I beg to differ with both those sentences. I think the regression theorem implies they are both incorrect.

  1. I am glad we agree that in a free market bitcoin is doomed. I believe it follows from the regression theorem that bitcoin is doomed in a coercive market as well [unless one is coerced into taking bitcoins, of course]. The regression theorem applies whether there is a free market without coercion or not, it seems to me. If you will show me which step of its reasoning does not apply in a coercive market I will be enlightened.

Perhaps it will make things easier on my poor powers if you summarize Mises’ elaboration of the regression theorem in your own words, to ensure we are on the same page, then show which line exactly is wrong in a coercive market, and why.

@smilingdave

Live_free_or_die said

I agree if a free market emerging was on the horizon Bitcoin would be a highly risky investment.

You replied

I am glad we agree that in a free market bitcoin is doomed

“Highly risky investment” isn’t the same thing as “doomed” smilingdave. I reckon it’s bad form to attribute views to people that they don’t hold.

I accept your rebuke, bitbutter.

Yes, I did.

Allow me to highlight the important key parts that are based on a belief:

I am just going to stop there but there are two more I could easily add…

Please tell me you are not going to attempt to argue a medium of exchange is not based on a belief something has “marketability” or is "most marketable’?

So let’s review my post with a little word interjection to determine what is blatantly false or untrue…

The most important part of money, that something is spendable, is historically based on a belief something has marketability.

In a free market anything can be money but commodities that are in high de­mand, divisible into small units without loss of value, durable, and transportable over large distances are likely to be the most widely used medium of exchanges or commonly accepted monies.

Now let’s get into the real argument and benefit of Bitcoin which you haven’t addressed. Bitcoin is merely an intermediary indirect medium of exchange because of its distinct privacy feartures. It does not matter if Bitcoin is in high demand, divisible into small units without loss of value, durable, or transportable over large distances. Bitcoin can interface with any money as already illustrated. Producers can sell Bitcoins to consumers for any money or producers can contract with third party money changers to sell Bitcoins to consumers for any money.

If selling Bitcoins is outlawed. Producers can sell Bitcoins in eGold or money changers can simply set up shop in Somalia.

Unless Bitcoin revamps it’s usefuillness such as creating a cloud computing currency for computing resources or something useful to function as an indirect medium of exchange, an intermediary indirect medium of exchange is most likely the future of Bitcoin in my opionion. But being an intermediary indirect medium of exchange does not doom Bitcoin to uselessness. Bitcoin has privacy usefullness and I feel optimistic the Bitcoin market or community may very well work out a decentralized, private way for consumers to purchase the coins of specific producers. As soon as duty free tobacco suppliers start accepting Bitcoins I may very well give Bitcoins a spin… :slight_smile:

Maybe humanity will get lucky and the underground economy will innovate an efficient decentralized, anonymous shipping network using modern tracking technology where no shipping records are stored long term. Maybe such a network would achive such usefullness and reliability insurers would take notice and start offering decentralized shipping insurance.

Live free,

  1. A careful reading of that very relevant piece from Rothbard shows clearly that we are talking about a commodity. Meaning something useful in and of itself, not just to pass along to the next guy. Almost every single sentence shows this, but in particular this line:

This de­mand for their use as a medium is superimposed on the demand for their direct use, and this increase in the composite demand for the selected media greatly increases their marketability.

Key words here are “superimposed” and “direct use”. Which eliminates bitcoin.

It is no accident that Rothbard spoke about superimposed on top of direct use, for he was being careful to adhere to the requirement of the regression theorem, that a money must start with having a direct use.

  1. I see no mention of “belief” in that whole long section. Rather he talks about verifiable facts. The two are not the same. For instance I can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. but I will be wrong. He will not be a good money, for he does not exist.

Would you please educate me on the difference between a belief and a verifiable fact? How many people does it take for a belief to become a fact?

If one person witnessed Jesus raising Lazurus from the dead, is it a fact? If two witnessed it? Three? Hundred? Thousand?

If a fact is something that is not validated from inherently flawed human observation then please explain how something becomes a “fact”…

Is there any difference in conceptual meaning between this simple word substitution:

Verifiable fact

Verfiable belief

I will provide a definition you are unlikely to find in Webster’s:

A fact is a belief that is not in dispute.

My next question should be obvious. If verifiable facts are not in dispute why are all mainstream economists in America Keynsian’s and why does America use fiat money that has less demand for direct use than Bitcoin’s?

“What perplexes me is that for all of the bitching about Bitcoin I can’t think of one Austrian write up complaining about virtual currencies used in MMORPG’s such as Entropia Dollars, WOW gold, etc.”

Well.. that’d probably have something to do with them not pretending to be money..

@Sam Armstrong: Pretty slick presentation, do you do this kind of thing professionally? If not, you should consider it.

Thanks. That was my first educational video. I’ve never really thought about it as a profession. I’m a programmer.

The trouble with suggesting that Bitcoins have some kind of “fallback use” as captchas is that this already exists (hashcash) yet the market seems to be going in the direction of image-based captchas for whatever reason. In addition, the fact that the potential future use of Bitcoins as captchas is a very low value (potential) use cannot simply be waved off. If you are holding 10 Bitcoins ($143 as of today), the fact that these might be useful someday in order to send 10 emails if someone develops and deploys a Bitcoin-based hashcash system and the person you’re sending email to happens to use Bitcoins as the spam-filtering system is very little incentive to hold on to your Bitcoins if a flash crash happens as happened on Mt. Gox a few weeks back. As the value in a crash drops to $5, $2, $1, the incentive is “get out now” because even $1/Bitcoin is a hell of a lot more value than the above-stated use as a hashcash.

Clayton -

I’d tend to agree with this, but a couple caveates.

  1. Bitcoin has vastly better marketing that hashcash, which might push it over the edge in terms of wide spread use over hashcash. Marketing it as a real currency is/was a brilliant idea.

and

  1. If it’s “exchange value added” worth increases as more merchants accept it, it might sustain it’s current price and become a full fledged money (where that line is exactly I’m not entirely sure, but I’d be willing to say that it’s not at that point right now). This would follow the gold model where gold’s store of value worth is much higher than it’s use worth.

I’m not as optimistic as some are on bitcoin, thus my only owning 2.5 bitcoins right now. But I do see a route for it to become a money unlike others. It truely could be that 100 bitcoins is really only worth $1 in terms of use value (again I’m not sure what the conversion rate of bitcoin to capcha would be, and then from capcha to dollars).

If you wanted to do a conversion you’d have to find out how much work would be required to show your not spam, then convert that into how many bitcoins that amount of work could create averaged over the lifespan of bitcoin (to account for those coins made very cheaply), and convert that work into how much it cost to perform that work, and then take off some percentage based on the risk/how far in the future it will take for someone to build and deploy a bitcoin based hash cash system.

I can’t tell you any of those numbers, I was merely trying to explain that it’s not zero.

Rohbard quote:

This de­mand for their use as a medium is superimposed on the demand for their direct use, and this increase in the composite demand for the selected media greatly increases their marketability.

Smilingdave:

  1. I see no mention of “belief” in that whole long section. Rather he talks about verifiable facts.

Belief is there allright, it’s implicit in the mention of demand. A crucial component of demand for X is the expectation that X will be serviceable in satisfying desires (or removing felt unease). This expectation is a belief, an inference.

@smilingdave

[…] a commodity. Meaning something useful in and of itself, not just to pass along to the next guy.

This idea of being ‘useful in and of itself’ vs ‘useful only to pass on’, (consumption vs trade) is a false distinction. Nothing is ‘useful in and of itself’. All goods are valued only according to the most optimal use the valuer can think of with regard to satisfying his desires. Now, Whether the imagined use is ingesting the good, skimming it along the surface of a pond, ritually burning it, or passing it on to another person in exchange for something else is utterly irrelevant, they’re all just alternative uses as far as praxeology is (or should be) concerned.

Live Free,

If we are to use the word belief in the manner you seem to, then indeed one can say that money is based on belief.For no one will do anything at all unless they believe that what they do is good for them. For example, if you believe your food is poisoned, you will not eat it.

And if we enter into the realm of philosophy and question what is sufficient evidence for something etc, yes, it all boils down to belief.

So yes, in that sense money, and love, and breakfast, are all based on belief.

I understood you to mean that money is based on belief and nothing more. That if everyone believes that X is money, it is money. Which is true after a fashion. But there is an underlying question one should think about. "Are all objects equally likely to inspire belief in their being money? Are there some things [say excrement] that we can safely assume will never be accepted as money? Can we discover what features of a thing will preclude so many people from believing it is money that we can predict with a great degree of confidence that it will never be believed to be a money?

The discussion here is about those questions. Mises claims to have deduced from self evident axioms and impeccable logical deduction that people will only believe a thing to be money [other than a few fools here and there, who will believe anything] if it has direct use. I invite you to summarize his line of reasoning and show where it is flawed.

bitbutter,

The mind has the ability to catagorize objects based on certain features. Sometimes a particular catagorization proves fruitful in extending our understanding of the world [for example, bread without mold is good to eat, bread filled with mold is risky], other times it proves not very useful [for example, water that has had an incantation recited over it by a witch doctor is no different that water that has not].

Mises and Rothbard have claimed, and their arguments are there for all to see and summarize and lay out the flaw if it exists, that their categorazion of objetcs into those that have direct use and those that do not is a useful one, and that the two types of object differ in that one may be accepted eventually as money, but the other never will. To dispute them, it is not enough to deny the categorization, but point out the flaw in their reasoning, if one can be found.

@Smilingdave

Mises claims to have deduced from self evident axioms and impeccable logical deduction that people will only believe a thing to be money [other than a few fools here and there, who will believe anything] if it has direct use. I invite you to summarize his line of reasoning and show where it is flawed.

I invite you to explain how this line of ‘impeccable’ reasoning is useful as anything more than:

  1. A backwards-looking explanation of how historical moneys emerged form barter systems, and
  2. A reason to believe that, all else equal, a good with non-trade uses will be more likely to become money than a good with only trade use.

Of course neither of these establish than only goods with non-trade uses can become money.

Pehaps the skeptics here, like me, are misunderstanding some crucial step in Mises’ argument, but it’s in no way obvious why it’s necessarily the case that only ‘a few fools’ would believe that Bitcoin could be money. I’d hazard a guess that the ‘pro-bitcoin’ audience here is more receptive than most to the general approach and ideas of the austrian masters, but I think we’re not seeing how this claim is anything more than an unsupported assertion.

Mises and Rothbard have claimed, and their arguments are there for all to see and summarize and lay out the flaw if it exists, that their categorazion of objetcs into those that have direct use and those that do not is a useful one, and that the two types of object differ in that one may be accepted eventually as money, but the other never will

I’ve yet to see a sound argument to this effect, or even anything that looks superficially like an argument at all–rather than a flat assertion. I really don’t understand where this bizarre idea is coming from. I’m still hoping that someone can enlighten me.

On the claim that :

people will only believe a thing to be money [other than a few fools here and there, who will believe anything] if it has direct use.

This sounds suspiciously like the no true scotsman fallacy: if it turned out that Bitcoin was adopted by a majority, it would be objected that the majority were fools. Okay, but why should they to be considered fools? Because they’ve accepted something that can never earn the magical label ‘money’, according to some dead Austrians? Fine, why should these happy ‘fools’, successfully using Bitcoin in their evryday lives exactly as though it were money, care whether you, or anyone else insists that the digital currency doesn’t qualify for that label? (if you believe this situation could never obtain for praxeological reasons, please explain why).

My dear bitbutter,

You skipped Step One, summarizing the reasoning of the regression theorem in your own words. This is not an unfair request on my part, as it is the common procedure amongst educated men. The regression theorem is the sound argument you have yet to see. Maybe you misunderstood it, or failed to grasp the implications of it. I await Step One, your summary.

if it turned out that Bitcoin was adopted by a majority, it would be objected that the majority were fools.

Oh no, no, no. If that magic day ever comes, then I will certainly eat humble pie and be proven wrong.

@Smiling Dave
As I understand it, the theory is that gold became used as money not only because it was valued for it’s use as jewelry, but because it had relatively high value compared to its weight and volume (it was easy to travel with for example) and also because the demand was common enough that it could be traded in far away places. (Gold also has many other intrinsic properties making it practical, but so does bitcoins.)

The critics of bitcoins say, since bitcoin only has a tiny initial demand, less than a dime, and it’s only traded by a tiny group of computer geeks, it can’t become money.

I think, perhaps, part of the disagreement then is because of some unique advantages that comes from using a digital and Internet based medium which might not be immediately apparent. It would certainly have sounded like science fiction 50 years ago.

First of all, even if bitcoins are worth less than a dime, bitcoins have no weight or volume. Both 0.00000001 BTC and 21 million BTC fits on a USB flash drive. Transferring the smallest fraction cost as much as transferring all bitcoins that exist. So even if bitcoins only have a tiny value, it makes it possible and practical to use them as a medium of exchange. Secondly, even if there is only a handful of fools that are willing to exchange bitcoins for money, thanks to the Internet, anyone can get in touch with them (for example at mtgox.com) in an instant and they can make the exchange in less than a few minutes. I think the Internet might have lowered some requirement physical money has that rules out, say beanie babies, as impractical.

Also, I think an important point is that there are other, more practical, alternatives to physical money than beanie babies, like USD or precious metals. Given no better alternative people might actually use beanie babies as money. Most people use some national fiat currency rather than, say precious metals, despite the disadvantages, probably because paper money is more practical than gold coins.

If we could use gold or other traditional forms of cash on line, most people would probably prefer to do so in favor of bitcoins, but currently the only alternative is credit cards or centralized services like paypal who a takes large fees. (Despite these fees, many people still prefer credit cards when they could have used cash, because digital transactions are more practical (and the fees are hidden.)) If people perceived bitcoin as more practical and safe (or at least beneficial enough) why wouldn’t they use them when paying on line?


My background is with computers so I might find the idea of bitcoins having some intrinsic coolness more believable than someone with a background in economics. Not so long ago I still believed most money was based on the gold standard, and I admit the theory behind currency is completely new to me. I will try to summarize the way I understand the regression theorem in order to rule out any misunderstanding. Based on the excerpts from Mises texts on your blog, I would summarize it as:

  1. An economic good initally has a value due to some demand (before it’s use as money).
  2. If a good becomes popular as a medium of exchange, it would create additional demand. If the supply is limited and the demand increases so does it’s value.
  3. “Now the extent of that part of the demand for a medium of exchange which is displayed on account of its service as a medium of exchange depends on its value in exchange”.

In other words, in order for the first trader to accept bitcoins in exchange for his goods he must be able to later trade the bitcoins for some good he wants. This can be done at exchanges such as mt. Gox where bitcoins can be traded for dollars, wich is something many people wants/need. So it’s possible, although risky perhaps, to use bitcoins as a medium of exchange.

Since there is a limited supply, if bitcoins where to become a popular medium of exchange it’s value would increase due to increasing demand. (And if popular enough it would eventually be considered money by most definitions).

This is what the bitcoin speculators are betting on. Some bitcoiners even seem to argue that the initial demand for bitcoin could come from speculating that the demand will increase when bitcoins are used as a money in the future. This seems paradoxical but I can’t think of a reason it’s wrong.

The main question is this though: what happens if the initial demand eventually disappear (because it’s a fad)? As far as I understand the regression theorem it doesn’t say anything about that. Or rather, it actually indicates that the money will retain its value due to the demand for its use in transactions. As far as I can see, the critics claim this would be the end of bitcoins but no one has explained why.

As bitbutter says somewhere, the key difference from gold is that there is some industrial demand for it:
“Unlike gold, the price of Bitcoin could fall to zero if there was a loss of confidence it its future tradeability. In the event of a loss of confidence in gold, gold holders could likely still sell their gold to certain buyers (for a fraction of its current price). It’s not clear why you, and others, apparently [claim] that this one marginal advantage enjoyed by gold (a better assurance of a minimum sale price) should be considered the dividing line between money and non-money.”

I agree there might be several reasons why the confidence in bitcoin as a transaction medium might disappear (if there is a flaw in the encryption scheme used for example). But if we say its usefulness as a transaction medium is constant and the number of bitcoins is constant, why would the demand (and consequently value) drop to zero within a few years?

This article about bottled water in Iraq is very instructive, and a very good example of what Mises was talking about. It puts the whole bitcoin thing in perspective.

The water in the province was not very drinkable, the villagers lost faith in the paper money, and started doing businees by pricing things in sheep. He continues [emphasis mine]:

The bottled water brought in from the larger cities was one of the most sought-after commodities in the village, and I soon noticed villagers pricing items in not only sheep, but bottles of drinking water as well.

Then there was the standard wartime medium of exchange: cigarettes. The villagers smoked cigarettes every evening with chai tea. They were bought in the cities and brought back by the truck load. As a result they were not as valuable as sheep or bottled water; however they served as small change for the villagers.

That’s what we are talking about. That’s what is going to be the money. One of the most sought after commodities [=useful in themselves, not to pass on to the next guy], that everyone uses every day. Compare this to the trivial non money use of bitcoin, which a few computer geeks value, [if indeed they still do now the novelty has worn off].

That might work nicely in your local village but the problem with sheep, bottled water and cigarettes is you can’t send them over the Internet. In fact it would be highly impractical to carry around enough of these if you ever had to travel outside your local village.

  1. You keep wanting to bring the conversation back to the same issue. I fail to understand your point. I elaborated in my own words leveraging Rothbard. I described Bitcoin as a “intermediary indirect medium of exchange.” What is there to further disucss about direct use? Is there something in dispute on whether Bitcoin fits an Austrian definition of money?

  2. I suggested an “intermediary indirect medium of exchange” is a coerced market phenomenon and suggested you should yield to it. I can’t recall your exact response and I don’t feel like scrolling up but you did object to yielding to coerced market phenomenon’s.

  3. I asserted whether or not bitcoin is money, is irrelevant to the usefullness of Bitcoin. This is because individuals are forced to pay taxes in private credit and the state is over taxing or over regulating goods. Bitcoin has a distinct usefullness in a coerced market of fiat money.

If you can acknowledge Bitcoin has some usefullness in a coerced market I can exit the conversation in agreement. If you are unable to make an acknowledgement I am going to continue to insist on an explanation other than constantly bringing up a well settled point of what is the Austrian definition of money…

Hmm, what if we didn’t call bitcoins money, lets call bitcoin a service that lets you securely pay on line at a competitive price? Thats how they would be perceived by most users. Why wouldn’t people use that service?