Fractional reserve banking question

You need an intervention. I recommend you read Murray Rothbard’s “The Case Against the FED” as soon as possible. And anything by Jeffrey Tucker and Lew Rockwell.

Case Against the FED FREE - http://mises.org/books/fed.pdf

J. Tucker on Speculation - http://mises.org/daily/2976

Karrlson on Speculation - http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/karlsson9.html

Butler Shaffer on Speculation - http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer177.html

Lew Rockwell, selected readings

The Greatness of the Market in a Crisis - http://mises.org/daily/3055

The Government Wrecks the Economy - http://mises.org/daily/3017

The War on Recession - http://mises.org/daily/2925

Everything You Love, You Owe to Capitalism - http://mises.org/daily/2982

Hope these help you.

Actually I don’t believe my “money” has any risk of not being there when I go to withdraw it. It is insured by the FDIC up to $100,000. I am as certain as I can be that I will get my money back if I demand it. On the other hand, I don’t believe that necessarily means that I will get all of the value of the money I put in back.

I do not see why I need an intervention. All the links you supplied fit in with my understanding of the problems in our economy but they do not seem to point out the cause of why our paper money supply is inflationary. The cause of the ever expanding money supply is interest. When the banks made the first loan for say a $1000 at %5 interest they knew that the guy would realize that he could not pay back the loan since $1050 did not exist. The only way of solving that problem while still making lots of money is to lend out more to someone else with a time offset so the first guy could make the interest off the 2nd guy and pay back the loan then the second guy would make it off the 3rd and on and on. The interest never really gets paid off though it just gets shifted from one person to the next person. Everyone pays %5 interest so the 1st loan of $1000 has $50 interest the second adds up to $2000, $100 interest the 3rd is $3000, $150 interest the next guy in line inherits the interest from the guy before unless someone defaults. This can be mathematically shown to be the case without much effort. The only way the interest could be paid off is if it was spent into the economy but that is not what happens it is instead used to back another loan.

Even in an economy with a gold standard that was not inflationary it is obvious it would not work. Say there was a million dollars in gold coins lent into circulation at %5. The total owed to the banks would be $1,050,000 since there is only 1,000,000 in existance someone would have to default and the bank would gain $50,000 worth of that countries assets. Repeat this procedure for a long enough perid of time and the bank would own all assets essentially trading the interest on gold which does not have alot of practical uses (at least versus supply) for all the goods houses etc the country made.

Once you add interest to a commodity that is meant to simplify trade you pay to make it inefficient and unstustainable. As I said before Web of Debt is probably the best book about the problems with our current economic models and while I might not agree with all the proposed solutions I do see alot of validity to the fundamental problems as explained in the book.

I was trying to be humorous. Mostly.

Then you didn’t read them.

That is like saying, “the cause of my house is hammer and electric drill”. Interest is a technique, a method a strategy. It is not the cause. What you’re doing, is ignoring what I posted, and continuing forward with your preconceived ideas about money. Which is fine. Eventually you will only be talking to yourself, because you’re way off base.

People who think they understand the debt virus or the compound interest paradox without having read anything else are really frustrating. Your “perfect debt virus” scenario is contingent upon a lot of stars aligning. And even then, I’m not sure it could happen in the absence of legal tender laws. You’re discussing the flaws in a flawed system. Attack the system, not the notion of money or a means of exchange.

Please, please, please read Rothbard. You’ve read one or a couple books that do not give you a complete view of money and banking.

How does the FDIC cover this risk when it can only cover about 1% of all deposits?

Let’s just hope that your bank is the one that fails in the first 1%.

The FDIC is simply a smokescreen. The whole process is still unsound. Central banking, deposit insurance, fiat currency backing, and regulatory controls cannot stop the day of reckoning, where FRB must severely contract its artificial credit and fail to return anything to its depositors.

slider…

  1. like i said, if gold tends to be used as money because it is over-valued, why would it have ever been used as money in the first place, before it was possible to have such over-valuation? And through market pricing and exchange, how can we even claim that something has a different value than its market price?

  2. first, the high or low value of a substance has little to do with its use as money. it simply needs a stable value - in the case of money, this means a relatively static supply. as i said, if gold costs a lot, it also sells for a lot. its value has nothing to do with the exchange rates of the non-monetary goods that are actually being traded.

gold might be a pretty value-less thing to have on a desert island (i also don’t know about this…if you had enough, a gold statue would make a pretty attractive beacon to any passing ships). but if everyone was stranded on a desert island, we’d have bigger problems than determining ideal money. for a normal society, gold has far greater value for its weight than food or shelter…this makes sense; it cannot be produced at will. also, two of the ideal properties of money are durability and portability, which neither sandwiches and houses have both.

i am not simply making this up. your dilemma here was debated and solved in the 1700’s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value

and you may prefer a sandwich over gold, and would only value gold if it were able to be traded for many sandwiches. but as i said, there are others with the complete opposite persuasion, who want gold not to simply sell it for a greater number of sandwiches, but simply because they want it more than anything else at that value. if everything had a specific value common to everyone, then there would be no trade whatsoever. trade requires people to value what they receive more than what they offer in exchange.

  1. This is what I originally meant: all that is required for gold to have a market value higher than a sandwich is for one powerful person to desire gold many more times than a sandwich. maybe everyone else would prefer a sandwich over an ounce of gold, but they know that they could sell the gold to that one person for 100 sandwiches. But, if everyone could mine an ounce of gold far easier than they could make 100 sandwiches, this situation would change quickly → the market price of gold would go down as production increased and demand decreased. Normally, it is easier to make 100 sandwiches than to find an ounce of gold. Thus, depending upon how much that one person wanted gold, he may up the price.

People will act to reward themselves. In an exchange society, that means not producing simply what you want, but what others want, provided they in turn provide you with what you want. People actively attempt to produce things like gold, because it is a quicker means of attaining what they do want, then directly producing those things.

  1. I don’t know what you are saying here. How is gold production different from gold mining? And I don’t see how a significant amount of man-power would be wasted in such operations. Shouldn’t the same thing be occurring today?

5 & 6) No, no no! I hate when I run into this argument because it is simply not true. If you take a $1,000 loan which is the only money in existence, you can still pay the loan and interest (let’s say $1,100) with only $1,000 in circulation. The reasons for this are (a) you don’t have to pay the loan back as one lump payment and (b) the bank spends the money that you pay it back into circulation. As long as you produce things that others want, you should be fine.

of course, it can become a problem when only one institution can create what is solely legally known as money.

  1. You’re squaring a circle. Of course everyone tries to avoid selling at a loss, yet people still do. The reason that people sell at enormous “gains,” however, is not because of interest, but because of increased nominal demand, which is basically what you’re saying on the side. This isn’t simply interest. It occurs outside of interest. Why wouldn’t I buy a house at $200,000 with cash, then sell it later for $550,000? Because $550,000 later isn’t the same thing as $200,000 today. It’s not a true 100+% profit in real terms. And this is due to money supply, not interest.

Simply because our inflationary currency system is created through the banking system and loans doesn’t mean lending at interest is the required ingredient for inflation. For instance, the emperor of Rome used to debase his coins with base metals, then spend the increased supply. There was no interest, yet prices went up.

Look, your basic premise is flawed. Thus, your conclusions are quite flawed. You are essentially defining your own values for your products. Who is doing all this appraising? An exchange economy uses money for calculation. You should read Mises’s rebuttal to socialism. Here, I’ll give you a link to a summary: http://mises.org/daily/2401 It basically says you can’t replace market exchange rates with appraisals and expect to have a properly working system.

Speculation may have occasional negative effects (although I think you are over-stating them), but it also allows capital investment, the backbone of our economy. You are starting to sound like a 100% Marxist with this stuff. You are suggesting we can engineer a money system to remove interest from lending and an economy that is free from speculation. Good luck.

Because there’s more money, nominally. Why is there more money? Because one privileged group is allowed to create it, which essentially allows them to forcibly transfer others’ wealth to themselves.

Why is this so hard to understand? You may have stake in your interest theory, but it is wrong. Even a book you mentioned reinforces this. The Creature from Jekyll Island clearly says that interest doesn’t require new money to afford it, only that the interest payments are spent back into the economy. Of course, this only pertains to a system where only one institution can introduce money into society, and everyone has to accept it as money.

In a free market, where anything can serve as money and anyone can make loans, interest, market prices, and speculation are not a problem.

Too many depositors asking for too much money at the same time is an accident. The chance that they will not pay your money is <<1 .

No it is not - it’s something that always happens, sooner or later. There must be a hundred posts in this thread explaining what’s wrong with FRB and fiat-money - take a look at them.

Insurance is a workable system. FRB is not.

Whatever. That does not make it fraud.

That was also discussed in depth. Bankers never explain upfront how their system works. To me that’s fraud, but call it ‘whatever’ you please. Despite its name, it will not work.

Under “normal” circumstances, no more than 10% of depositors will demand their money. With a few failing banks and a little pressure put on the FDIC, this will change. Once the FDIC has gone bust, there is 0% chance that the banks will be able to meet their depositors’ demands to withdraw, without completely destroying the value of that money by storming the discount window. I don’t even think the FOMC could buy up enough debt to cover this amount.

That said, I don’t think the banks are as fraudulent as the government, if at all. The banks are really forced into this system. The government is the one who has defrauded the world by steadily preventing gold redemption for federal reserve notes. Yet, supposedly power comes from the people. In this view, it would seem that fraud is impossible, as the citizens can’t demand this system then claim they were deceived into accepting it. I wouldn’t call it fraud, but error.

When the fall does come, I don’t think too many people will be saying, “Well, I guess we made an error by using central banking and fiat currency to preserve a fractional reserve system that is doomed to be unable to meet its claims. Our bad.” They will most likely blame you and me, for abandoning the dollar and investing in gold/silver, or the government, for giving them what they asked for.

It worked quite well in Scotland until central banking.

I never mentioned FDIC and FOMC, they should be abolished.

FRB ? I doubt it.

http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/bullion.htm

In the 18th Century, there was a clearing-house system of banking in the United Kingdom. Banknotes, which circulated as money, were issued by private banks. These bearer notes were claims on gold held by the bank - hence the common preamble which still persists in modern Bank of England notes, “I promise to pay the bearer on demand X pounds.” In that time period, that promise was actually true: a person could take a note to the bank which issued it and ask for it to be exchanged for gold. Thus, for a long time, all paper notes were issued by private banks on the basis of the gold they had in their vaults.

In Scotland, however, there was a slight exception: banknotes often had a clause that allowed the bank to suspend convertibility. Although banks were legally required to pay the bearer in gold bullion, they could temporarily suspend that conversion should they find that necessary. The suspension clause in Scottish banks was the way that system responded to clearing house “bullying” trick - whereby several banks would surreptitiously hold back notes issued by bank Z and then, one day, they would all collectively unload the notes upon bank Z and demand redemption. Naturally, as it was a fractional reserve banking system, bank Z would not be able to redeem them all. If convertibility was required by law, then bank Z would have to declare bankruptcy. This sort of ruination by a clearing house cartel against a loner bank was not uncommon in Europe and North America. Thus, Scottish law allowed for a temporary suspension of convertibility. This clause, however, was banned in 1765 and henceforth Scottish banks were required to pay the full amount on demand.

The government banned the tool the market protected its stability. Great.

That is what caused the depression of 1819 - government protection of breach of contract. It does not promote stability, it only dams up instability, while in the process distorting the economy through changes to money supply.

Conversely, the government didn’t protect the trusts in the Panic of 1907 when J.P. Morgan and co sought to wipe them off the map and make the case for central banking at the same time. While this was painful, it wasn’t as bad as 1819…

And it pales in comparison to 1929 - ?, when the contraction of artificial credit was simply disregarded through not only central banking, but the prohibition of gold currency. Of course, there were many other poor policies put into place in those days…

I did read all the links and I completely understand that inflation is the problem. None of the articles mentions interest at all and to me the problem is that interest is such an ingrained part of our system that people do not think to contemplate it at all which is in fact alot like paper money in our current system it is taken for granted that it is a necessity that most people do not bother to look into it any deeper than they need to. As far as speculation that is not something I am completely deadset against but I believe that in the context of a fair democratic monetary system it is something that would be drastically reduced.

All I am saying is that making money out of thin air is not the real problem. As an example if the fed lent out paper money to reflect the goods in society there would not be a problem it is when they give out more money than the goods are worth that problems begin to arise. If there were 3 people all with assets appraised (guessed using current market prices or an agreement between buyer and seller) at $10 each and they were all lent $10 for a set term at %0 interest with those goods as collateral they would be able to all buy each others goods without having to resort to inefficient bartering and then pay back the loan or lose their product. Now giving one agency that kind of power is very likely a bad idea and how to best implement that system I do not know I am just saying that it would be more effcient and fair. To me paper money or gold have very little intrinsic worth, there worth relies completely on the products and services a society makes if everyone stopped producing goods tomorrow no one would pay interest to attain either paper money or gold. If all the gold and paper money dissapeared tommorow goods and services would still have a demand although the inefficiencies of barter would complicate trade. What this tells me is that the more fundamental aspect of our economy is goods and services and money is just a way to abstract goods and services to make trade more efficient.

In some foreign countries in small communities the role of banks are being usurped with pen and paper. In a community where people know and trust each other they make a certain product then credit themselves the amount it is worth on a ledger. So everyone who made a ten dollar good credits themselves then when they want to buy something they buy the good then minus it off their ledger than add it to the ledger of the person they bought it from. So they have obsoleted the need for a bank and the vast sums of money they get paid with pen and paper. Obviously this would never work on the scale of a country as there is no way everyone could be trusted, outright fraud and exagerations of a goods worth would be commonplace, but with a 3rd party non profit institution that gave jailtimes for fraud and had strict transparent accounting and oversights it could be done.

I gave a few examples before of how I understand the, as you call it, debt virus and I would like to know what counteracts it. The only stars I can see that would counteract the effect is if banks spent the interest into the economy but this is definitely not the case they lend it into the economy. The other process that would seem to counteract it is loan defaults but if the loan has collateral the bank sells the collateral and gets most of the money back anyway. Loan defaults on unsecured loans would mitigate the problem since they in fact release “free money” into the economy but loan defaults on unsecured debt are a drop in the bucket. Also trade surpluses which are enough to pay of interest on a debt will also negate the effects of interest but at the cost of another country who will soon realize the trade deficit is hurting them and remedy the problem through less consumption (lower satandard of living) and more work.

Banks spending the interest back into the economy is not the case. Most money comes into the economy through house loans and as I pointed out before a $200,000 house costs about $550,000 with a 25 year loan. Since their profits are about %50 of the cost of the house at the 25 year mark they would have to buy half of the houses (or spend an equivalent amount somewhere else) for them to spend the interest back into the economy. Banks do not spend such large amounts of money into the economy they lend it out to the economy which only serves to perpetuate the problem and increases the debt owed due to interest. I do not see how people will not accept that when I buy a house for $200,000 dollars then get a loan and ask how much I will pay for the house at the end of 25 years and the bank says $550,000 that is in fact the defintion of inflation. I have to pay more for the same good because the bank lent me $200,000 worth of paper. If the banks did not charge interest the price of the houses on average would not go up they would stay the same what drives the prices up is that no one is going to sell a house they paid $550,000 for for $200,000 and a consensus of new prices occurs because everyone is in the same predicament.

I did read Rothbard and there was no mention of interest at all. There was nothing that explains how the debt virus is overcome without shifting vast amounts of money to the lendor who in effect contributes very little practically to the production of the borrower. I completely agree that gold seems to be a better medium because it cannot be counterfeited and removes the ability of the lendor to do so. But on the other hand people seem to assume that gold has an inherint value and are willing to pay interest on it because of that and to me that is dangerous. Gold has very little inherint value and gains most of its value not from itself but from the goods and services the society provides without these goods it value would be considerably less.

  1. I am just talking in practical terms of the worth of gold. In ancient times it was thought to be a dense combination of water and sunlight and this mystical idea of owning sunlight probably contributed significantly to its worth. The use of it as money is very similar to our use of paper money except the powerful people who gave gold its worth were royalty who desired it for its malleability and resistance to tarnish which made it easy to make shrines and idols, plates, cups, vases etc that the powerful desired. Whereas today the powerful (our government) have done the same thing for paper money by making it something which can be used to pay taxes and private debts. I am sure the excessive value of both in practical terms came from the ability to use it to pay taxes which served to elevate it as a standard means of trade. The fact that paper could be elevated to something that could be traded for labor goods etc through crafty manipulations shows that it is not so much the material that is used for trade that is important but the goods services etc that they represent or abstract.

  2. I am only arguing that the value of gold when there is nothing to buy with it is worthless but the value of a sandwich which cannot be traded for anything is not reduced. I am saying that the value of goods is a more fundamental aspect of an economy than the gold which can be used to buy them. If gold and all forms of money dissapeared tomorrow trade would still be possible through barter but if all goods and services dissapeared tomorrow all the money in the world would not matter.

  3. I agree and believe that the powerful person who desires gold or money is the reason beliefs become skewed to valuing gold or paper money as having an unreasonably high (in practical terms) intrinsic value. The fact that our current valuation of paper money is so high shows that with the proper resources anything of sufficent rarity or controlled production can be manipulated to be seen as having a value which in practicality it does not have. Whether it is gold or paper money that is very hard to counterfeit and has controlled production does not matter. Here is a quote by Warren Buffet (who has surpassed Bill Gates as richest man) on gold:

“It gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head.”

  1. I believe that any gold mining that is not used in a actual product is a waste of manpower. What I was saying though was if we used gold with many of the same rules in place as today such as inflation gold would have to be mined to keep up with inflation or it would have to be constantly devalued much like paper money is today. If there was a sudden housing boom so that the number of houses doubled there would either have to be more gold mined or the value of gold would have to be davalued to reflect the extra production. Also if a bank lent out $200,000 dollars for a house the interest of $350,000 worth of gold would have to be mined and lent to someone else otherwise the borrower would never be able to pay his loan so he would have to default. I am saying in an inflationary framework gold would not work very well.

5&6) Banks do not spend the interest back into the economy they lend it back into the economy which only serves to perpetuate the problem. If banks spent all the interest back into the economy they would end up owning everything over a period of time. With the example of mortgages (which are a huge part of the money injected into the economy) on a $550,000 house the bank gets roughly half. They would have to spend at least $250,000 into the economy for that house they do not do so they lend it out. Lump sum or not it has the same effect it serves to create inflation because all people who have bought a $200,000 house have payed $550,000 they are all going to ask for $550,000 or more for the house when they sell it this in effect sets the market value for houses as long as the banks are willing to finance them for that price. Prices are much less in control of the maket than they are in control of the banks and if the banks are willing to finance and no one defaults on it the price will hold.

  1. I do not believe that I am squaring a circle. In previous generations after the great depression when the economy was picking up steam prices continually dropped there were newspaper articles from politicians saying that they were entering a golden age where less work was needed to acquire the same amount of goods. This was a result of all the interest that had been propping prices up having been defaulted on. People began to gain the benefits of automation, competition and ever increasing efficiencies in the market place. This should also be the case today in most areas of productin and service not just electronics. When a more efficient method is discovered it means less man/hrs to produce the same good widening the margins when a competitor sees this he will enter that field lower his margins a little selling goods cheaper and through market share increase his profits. This is how our economy would work if interest was not eating up the gains of efficiency and at one point in time it was. This ever decreasing cost was a problem for big business as it was a disincentive to buy goods as more goods could be bought later for the same price this encouraged savings but was not as beneficial to big business as a incentive to spend (such as inflation) would be so in hindsight it looks as though they did everything in there power to encourage this inflationary economy.

$550,000 dollars later is not the same thing today because the banks have to lend out the interest so the borrower can pay off the loan this creates inflation and causes the dollar to be worth less. If loans where given out at %0 there would not be a need to loan the interest out so that the borrower could pay back his loan and inflation would not ocurr.

As far as appraising who apraises the cost of something today? An appraisal is a guess based on current market prices it is not fixing the price to a certain level outside of the market. I am in no way advocating socialism or marxism I am advocating a system which does not use interest as a means of releasing “money” into an economy. When someone takes a step back and realizes that money is essentially made out of “thin air” and that we are charged large sums of our time for the benefit of using it even though it has been replaced with a pen and paper in some places you come to realize what a collosal rip off this process is. I am not even saying interest should become illegal just that if it were mandated that there would be an institution lent at %0 it would eventually overtake any institutions that lent out money for more. Anyone could still try to lend out at interest but almost no one would take up the offer since they could get it cheaper somewhere else.

I know there is more money I am saying that if they created money to actually reflect the goods for sale without interest there would not be a problem of inflation. If there were 3 people with houses that where agreed by society to be worth $100,000 each and the bank made a term limited loan with the houses as collateral to each one, they would be able to buy each others houses with no problems the market value would not be driven up by the cost that was paid for the house so the cost would stay the same. Population increases would drive prices up but population decreases would drive the price down. Once you add interest into the equation it starts becoming exremely complicated and an entirely new set of rules comes into play which includes ever rising prices. Banks also do not spend the interest back into the economy they use it to back new loans.Ever increasing prices that do not remain relative to wages are unsustainable as there will be not enough money from wages to buy the goods produced.

As far as arguments against socialism I completely agree that a free market is better but in the far future that will not likely be the case as automation obsoletes jobs some form of socialism seems inevitable. In the last 40 years we have halved the number of people working in manufacturing jobs but our manufacturing output has remained the same. There is no reason to believe this trend will not continue and accelerate. I would consider making jobs in the service industry that are for the benefit of society as a form of socialism and as the only way to counteract the trend towards automation. There have recently been new products in farming that can do weeding etc using GPS and computer programs combined with machinery so the automation process is beginning to leave the confines of the factory and enter the outside world. So far we have been able to replace these jobs with new ones but any breakthrough technology could rapidly change that and even the service industry is switching to automated answering services or ATM’s instead of tellers so there is no guarantee that the service sector will be completely immune from future advancements. Whether these advancements will happen or are possible I do not know but if they do and are some form of socialism might be the only humane answer.

check out mises’s theory of interest. here you will have the interest angle of all those articles you read.

automation/technology is a net benefit. the best way to increase wages is to increase productivity per worker, which technology does. where it does push marginally skilled workers out of work, it allows charity an easier job of helping such people.

i’m sorry, slider, but what you are suggesting isn’t new. check out veblen’s work. most quack economists come at the subject from an emotional angle, where the data will be manipulated to reveal the results you want. this engineered society where goods are priced according to their “true value” and such is a utopian approach to a real problem.

when we get to post-scarcity, you may have a point; however, post-scarcity is a fiction. even if physical goods are a dime a dozen, intelligence will always be a scarce resource.

Is that what he’s going on about? I can’t be bothered to read huge posts any more. The number of quacks railing against interest is phenomenal.

-Jon