Few things on this planet are more entertaining then pointing out the statism of “small-government” conservatives and watching them squeal. The left-liberal arguments against Austro-libertarianism and market anarchism are very similar to those of neo-cons. On the scale of economic liberty, they are virtually indistinguishable.
I’ve been having a lot of fun but I have to sleep sometime. Reinforcements would very welcome if any of you want to hop in the fray:
Wow… I didn’t expect to see so many anti-capitalist sentiments. Not just in regards to the free movement of labor, but a strong support for government regulation and minimum wage. I expected to go in there and see you trolling, but you’ve done a very good job and written some great posts. That doesn’t convince me the cause is all that worthy, and I never feel good about flooding a hostile forum, but I applaud you nonetheless.
It’s sad you can’t get over the whole “illegal” thing. The mere fact that the state has declared immigration outside its arbitrarily chosen guidelines to be illegal is apparently enough for these conservatives. If it has been declared illegal, then it must be intrinsically wrong.
This is classic: "At the root of interventionism lies what free market economist Ludwig von Mises called the anti-capitalist mentality. People who hold this mentality, many of whom call themselves conservatives and paradoxically claim to be supporters of the economic system of capitalism, fight it tooth and nail when it comes to the realm of immigration. The time has come for conservatives to decide whether they adhere to the principles of laissez-faire capitalism or protectionism, for they cannot be both. "
Then there’s this:
"This is a common misperception, namely, that under capitalism, wages would be so low that people could not afford basic necessities. This only examines one side of the equation and ignores the other. If the labor market were free, it is true that competition would drive prices down. But there is also competition amongst producers for labor. If the income tax and other anti-capitalist devices were destroyed, capitalists would grow in number and wealth thus creating more employment opportunities for labor [emphasis added]. Lower wages also means lower costs of production and therefore a higher net total of goods and services produced. Thus, lower prices. Wages may be “low” in nominal terms, but purchasing power would be high. In a truly free economy with free banking (as opposed to the socialist fiat-currency system we have here in the States) prices would fall [emphasis added again because it is the truth]"
The link to Mises.org is like a free market virus infecting interventionist thought. I read through the thread, your posts were civil and well reasoned. Nicely done IMO. It took me two decades to arrive at the economic conclusions you hold now. Hope you become an entrepreneur.
Christ, I’m on page 7 and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve facepalmed. They constantly bring up the whole “But it’s illegal immigration!” and you constantly shoot it down. I’m quite ashamed to have once been a neoconservative before I saw the light.
That said, you have done an excellent job of holding your own against them as far as I can see. I may sign up and jump in with you (though I highly doubt that I can be of much help, considering I’m still somewhat of a rookie in Austrian economcis). Who knows, if we can sew doubt in even one mind (like doubt was sewn in mine with the abject failures of Bush) then it could have great benefits.
Its one of those debates where you won’t win. Its your opponents; I suspect they are stupid.
For instance, one or two started opposing practice and theory, i.e., the so called ‘real world’ and ‘in theory’… because apparently as if ‘in theory’ 2 and 3 make 5, but ‘in practice’ the answer is between 7 and 8 on Thursdays and 1 and 2 on Fridays, etc., etc.
J.B. Say has already remarked on how nonsensical such arguments are. But here’s the catch; your opponents do not read books, that is, neither Say nor Menger nor Mises, no books period.
Agreed - Early on in the thread I told the OP his/her arguments sounded like nothing more than a scholastic argument…Something that had nothing to do with the realities of the world.
This is priceless, as is the previous posters comment that your positions are more of a caricature of conservative positions by a leftist. You knew at some point they would “expose” you as a lefty!
Another face-palming moment was when you posted links on the Industrial Revolution and was accused of “drinking corporatist koolaid.” In fact, I had no idea that neocons even knew of the word “corporatist.” Probably a sign that, within a few years, the meaning of the term will be slaughtered be neocons as they’re doing to “free market” and “capitalism.”
Wait, neoconservatives are calling people corporatists? The same people who champion privileges for government-favoured corporations, defend pseudoprivate entities like energy companies and major banks as products of the free market, and decry anyone who doesn’t support the corporate welfare state (not that they mind the left wing one, either)?
Ugh… I don’t understand Hannity’s appeal at all. Even though most all neoconservatives are horribly misguided, at least Limbaugh and O’Reilly come off as otherwise reasonably intelligent. Hannity is both horribly wrong and horribly dumb.
Ditto. Even back when I considered myself conservative, I couldn’t stand Hannity. At least Limbaugh and O’Reilly have some entertainment value. Glenn Beck is the most genuine of them all, but he’s dragging the term libertarian through the manure by using it to describe himself. He also has an off-putting obsession with Revelation and the end of times.
“This is a pretty interesting thread. I agree that people who demand free markets have no ability to then complain when businesses screw over American labor markets and ship jobs overseas. The idea of unregulated markets sucks just as much as the idea of complete government control does. The American hybrid model of capitalism and socialism has been working great.”
These guys have to be smoking crack if they believe this stuff. I read a couple pages from the thread, and it seems like Aquila is the only one with a actual argument and logic to back it up.
Yes it works backwards. You can reset this under Edit Options on your User CP. Go to Thread Display Options and change it to “Linear - Oldest First.”
I was having trouble uploading an avatar as well. Then on about the third try, I could all of the sudden. I don’t know what happened. The forum is as fickle as a government bureaucrat.
