“But wich one will do the littering if no one want to do it? The answer is all of them. The littering will be equally seperated between each 3 workers, even if they all do a different ‘profession job’.”
What if I refuse to ‘do the littering’?
@Felipe : I am aware that libertarians are not the same as anarchist and I am also aware that they do not defend the status-quo. I think we (neo-marxist) are closer than libertarians that you think. We share the same wish to limit (and even eradic) the economic power of the State to maximize individual economic emancipation.
The only difference is that WE think that the State is only a tool for the burgess to ensure their grip over the workers and innovants and that the burgess limits the free economic emancipation the same way that the State does. Without the State to ensure the burgess’s grip, there will be an instant revolution caused by the economic antagonists that will lead to a socialist society even faster than what we have today. In our mind, WE SHARE THE SAME FIGHT.
@Aristippus : Look, you are free to do what you want, when you want. But if you refuse to help the society by doing the minimum work that no one whan to do, then I don’t think you should benefit of the society. If you refuse to do the littering, then you will simply wont get your social salary and you will be invited to take care of yourself alone. Again, it is exactly like you would act with your child, girlfriend or friends. It is the base of responsability, a word that we often forget these days… If some one is a parasite enough to refuse to do the minimum work, you will not want to live with him, right?. It is the exact same thing!
WE SHARE THE SAME FIGHT.
I hope so
If you refuse to do the littering, then you will simply just get your social salary and you will be invited to take care of yourself alone.
Sounds like a perfect solution.
When the state is finished we can divide the world in two, the Libertarian half and the Socialist half and everyone will be happy.
Although I wonder what is going to happen when millions of the Socialist half start defecting to the Libertarian half…
unionrevolte,
Again…
What (if anything) do you have against (1) private property (including one’s own body and labor) and (2) voluntary exchanges of such property between free individuals?
Thanks,
Z.
Alright here we go:
-Only us can guarantee total FREE MOVEMENT OF ALL humans on the planet. Only us have a real plan to take off the country’s borders. Of course, you cannot do this without ballancing the economy between different reagions, we’re saw what happened when we do that : rich reagions becomes richer and poor regions becomes even more poor. This imbalance makes it impossible for the poor reagions to produce and consume goods like they would want to. Economic imbalance prevent real liberalism, this is evident!
Free movement!? what does that mean? Does it mean I have the right to private property, the right of use and disposal of goods.
How is one free whjen he is living ina Egalitarian world?
-We are the only group wich proposes to really and definitely destroy the State (government) without causing a civil war encouraged by the social divisions. We are the only one that offers real free market that will regulates itself, exactly like Adamn Smith described.
I’ll keep this quote for now. How do you plan on achieving your goal?
-We would abolish most of the advertising that take off the critical thinking of the consumers, and will encourage real critical consumption. The ‘advertising’of the different products will have equal visibility.
Critical thinking can mean a lot of things. Let me see if I understand, we are free, yet you want us to consume as much as you say. Notice that the word “Over-consume” means a lot in your circles. Over-consume means nothing here.
There’s nothing wrong with consuming, provided you pay for it. If I payed, I can buy whatever I please.
What do you propose to do? Tell me how many shoes I can have? I just wasted most of my cash yesterday on 4 new suits and 6 pairs of shoes, you might say that’s too much. Yet Value is subjective.
-Our economic system proposes a full and perfect competition between businesses, without any speculation, taxes of any kind or bureaucracy.
I recommend you read Economy 101 by Henry Hazlit. I’m under the impression that you think the Stock Market is a bad thing.Why?
-In a liberal-egalitarist world, every terrans would become a contractor and an investor. Every human will have equal economic power (the democratic investment) to invest it in the social projet they want. Investment will no more be a privilege of the minority or of the State. Investments will be made ONLY and by all of the humans.
We already have Economi power. Last summer I made a lot of money and started a Bagel store. It failed but hey. Once I pay my debt I’m going to see other options.
Drew, you say “You suppose that a worker should be paid more then the entrepeneur”. But where did you found this in our writens? We constantly pretend that EVERY humans should get the SAME economic power. What would justify that a worker should be paid more than the entrepeneur? Nothing!
Anarcho-communists cranks like Noam Chomsky.
We are not anarchists, our system requires a social organisation, and we are far far away from the syndicalists. The world of the futur will forget what labor-unions were for because they will be free to work where they want and how they want, no more economic slavery. This is only a drawing, but you are free to ask any questions and I will try to develop my arguments the best I can.
Contradiction, maybe:
-We are the only group wich proposes to really and definitely destroy the State (government) without causing a civil war encouraged by the social divisions.
Offside note:
Are you aware that Quebec is broke, Quebec has a 222billion dollar debt. The welfare system doesn’t work, the socialised medicine is crap. And now most people my age want “free education” bah. Is this Education free for everyone, including those who pay 60% taxes.
Is Education free for those people who have a 30 year mortage and pay 60% income tax, house tax, school tax?
Are you serious?
That is crazy! Where do you go to school?
I was in a adult school. I didn’t say I was for child labor.
All I did was explain that they have no choice but to work, and that “exploitation” is going to get them out of poverty.
Most Asian countries slowly abandoned child labor because of prosperity. I wrote an essay that explained how these children have only 2 choices: prostitution and factory work.
Johan Norberg in his book “In Defence of Global Capitalism” offers more thou rough explanations.
@z1235 : I will try to explain the best that I can, even if I am not sure to understand you question (sorry, my english is not perfect, mayne you could try in french?).
What we have against private property is that it uses PUBLIC historical knowledge and ressources to create PRIVATE profit and economic influence. For example, Bill Gates, to invent Windows, he needed the work of MANY MANY humans and centuries of human knowledge. Farther in this example, he needed metal and plastic molding, electronical circuit, electricity and computers. He also needed the alphabet and some mathematical formulas heritated from Pythagoras. Did Bill Gates paid a humanity’s historical copyright to the descendant of Pythagoras and Thomas Edison? Of course not! If he did, it would have been INAFORDABLE to buy Windows…and a computer. He’s work is a social and historical work. If he wouldn’t have invented Windows, someone else would have. Maybe it would have been longer, but the historical conditions were there…
We are not against the market, we are against the Labour Market only because it is impossible to really judge what a good work is. Lots of people get paid to do some work that I qualify as negative forthe society. On the other hand, lots of people do some positive work for the society, but doesn’t get paid for : read a book, take the time to eat better, to do some excercice, take the time to teach your child well, planting trees, doing journalism’s investigations, domestic work, take care of old peoples, regional engagement, etc. We are not even paid for the work we are doing right now, here in this forum. All of these ‘works’ are indispensable for whole humanity emancipation, but does not create any profit or richness into a capitalism’s economy. But we continue the debate even if there are some politicians that are paid for that job! The truth is that we can all be politicians, teacher, medic, journalist or anyting else and it is profitable for everyone not to leave the work of politics only to the politicians. What do you do with people that are only good in things that cannot create richness in terms of profit? You throw them away into the social garbages? We prefer to include them and encourage them to participate to the society the best way they can. Worldwide centralisation was the mecanism of capitalism, decentralisation will be the watchword of tomorow.
As a resume, we could say that we once seperated the church from the politic. We now want to seperate material-liberalism from human-liberalism.We are not against free liberal exchanges between individuals, we are against economic slavery!
@Drew Brando : “Does it mean I have the right to private property, the right of use and disposal of goods.” Of course you can have a ‘domestic property’, buy and and dispose of YOUR goods as you want.
“How do you plan on achieving your goal?” We will democratically and WORLDWIDELY overturn the capitalistic system with a free revocable delegation, inspirated from the Commune de Paris of 1871 and the two russian revolution. All of the modern socialist’s revolution were made this way, we need to expand this worldwide (and it is starting inFrance, Grece, Tunisia, Egypt, …).
You say “There’s nothing wrong with consuming, provided you pay for it. If I payed, I can buy whatever I please.” But if you individually consume more than the PIB of your country, it is over-consumation. What gives you the right, YOU, to consume more than what the society can offer?
A critical way of consuming is based on the exchange of information between the consumers, not on false advertising.
“We already have Economi power”. Good thing for you, I also tried to start my own business… Anyway, we, canadians, are one of the country that benefit the most of the worldwide capitalism economy. Go tell this to someone that works 50$ per moth for you to get some nice shoes and shirts. I don’t think he really has ‘economic liberty’. What are your solutions? WORK EVEN MORE! HAHAHA PATHETIC! We offer TRUE solutions to each every terran, the solution to be really free!
Look, please keep on the subject. Quebec is not broked. If we would sold all of our hospitals, bridges, schools, etc. to the private entreprise, we wouldn’t have any dept. It is like a mortgage, you need to calculate the actives and the passives. Quebec is one of the biggest owner in Canada (according to the population).
What we have against private property is that it uses PUBLIC historical knowledge and ressources to create PRIVATE profit and economic influence. For example, Bill Gates, to invent Windows, he needed the work of MANY MANY humans and centuries of human knowledge. Farther in this example, he needed metal and plastic molding, electronical circuit, electricity and computers. He also needed the alphabet and some mathematical formulas heritated from Pythagoras. Did Bill Gates paid a humanity’s historical copyright to the descendant of Pythagoras and Thomas Edison? Of course not! If he did, it would have been INAFORDABLE to buy Windows…and a computer. He’s work is a social and historical work.
What is “historical copyright”?
If he wouldn’t have invented Windows, someone else would have. Maybe it would have been longer, but the historical conditions were there…
Only if the market forces would have demanded such an invention then some other person could have created an equivalent, but it wasnt the inevitable result of the materialistic forces of history.
we are against the Labour Market only because it is impossible to really judge what a good work is.
The Free Market does a pretty god job at that.
Lots of people get paid to do some work that I qualify as negative forthe society. On the other hand, lots of people do some positive work for the society, but doesn’t get paid for : read a book, take the time to eat better, to do some excercice, take the time to teach your child well, planting trees, doing journalism’s investigations, domestic work, take care of old peoples, regional engagement, etc. We are not even paid for the work we are doing right now, here in this forum. All of these ‘works’ are indispensable for whole humanity emancipation, but does not create any profit or richness into a capitalism’s economy.
Blame society for wanting to pay to an engineer to design a better operating system for their computers but not to the guy who excersises… crazy world uh?
We will democratically and WORLDWIDELY overturn the capitalistic system with a free revocable delegation, inspirated from the Commune de Paris of 1871 and the two russian revolution.
If you could just avoid the violation of private property and the mass famine in the process that would be just nifty.
All of the modern socialist’s revolution were made this way, we need to expand this worldwide (and it is starting inFrance, Grece, Tunisia, Egypt, …).
I cant recall a single socialist “revolution” involving a democratic process.
What gives you the right, YOU, to consume more than what the society can offer?
What gives you the right to tell anyone what to do with their property?
Go tell this to someone that works 50$ per moth for you to get some nice shoes and shirts. I don’t think he really has ‘economic liberty’. What are your solutions? WORK EVEN MORE! HAHAHA PATHETIC!
The amount of labor is not the source of value, I would say “go to college!”
We offer TRUE solutions to each every terran, the solution to be really free!
Great! What solutions?
Of course you can have a ‘domestic property’, buy and and dispose of YOUR goods as you want.
Your definition of Private Property is too ambiguous, please clarify.
@z1235 : I will try to explain the best that I can, even if I am not sure to understand you question (sorry, my english is not perfect, mayne you could try in french?).
What we have against private property is that it uses PUBLIC historical knowledge and ressources to create PRIVATE profit and economic influence. For example, Bill Gates, to invent Windows, he needed the work of MANY MANY humans and centuries of human knowledge. Farther in this example, he needed metal and plastic molding, electronical circuit, electricity and computers. He also needed the alphabet and some mathematical formulas heritated from Pythagoras. Did Bill Gates paid a humanity’s historical copyright to the descendant of Pythagoras and Thomas Edison? Of course not! If he did, it would have been INAFORDABLE to buy Windows…and a computer. He’s work is a social and historical work. If he wouldn’t have invented Windows, someone else would have. Maybe it would have been longer, but the historical conditions were there…
This is the most funniest and outrageous claim I have ever heard. I’ll let z1235 explain it.
Lots of people get paid to do some work that I qualify as negative forthe society. On the other hand, lots of people do some positive work for the society, but doesn’t get paid for : read a book, take the time to eat better, to do some excercice, take the time to teach your child well, planting trees, doing journalism’s investigations, domestic work, take care of old peoples, regional engagement, etc.
Keep in mind that Society is a non-thing, it does not exist in a tangible reality. Individuals exist.
You say: Lots of people get paid to do some work that I qualify as negative forthe society.
If someone pays them to do it then it is usefull for that someone who pays them. Keep in mind that the someone who pays them is a individual and he is part of the non-entity “society”. Therefore if it is usefull to him it is usefull for society.
but doesn’t get paid for : read a book, take the time to eat better, to do some excercice, take the time to teach your child well, planting trees, doing journalism’s investigations, domestic work, take care of old peoples, regional engagement, etc
If they do not get paid it means no one really wants they’re services. I agree with you that most of these things are usefull to Society, but that’s just my subjective view of what is and what isn’t usefull.
It’s not usefull to pay someone to “take care of old people” because there are way too many people who want to volunteer.
We are not even paid for the work we are doing right now, here in this forum.
Currency(money) is not the only payment valid. Neither is material goods. We trade everyday, wheter we trade feelings, words, services.
If I do something for “free” for my Grandman, I do it because I love her, therefore I get somethinn in return.
All of these ‘works’ are indispensable for whole humanity emancipation, but does not create any profit or richness into a capitalism’s economy.
If you are under the impression that profit is “bad” then please explain loss?
You throw them away into the social garbages? We prefer to include them and encourage them to participate to the society the best way they can. Worldwide centralisation was the mecanism of capitalism, decentralisation will be the watchword of tomorow.
Everything is recycled. I think there are tons of companys that produce things out of unwanted goods(cellphones,computers etc).
Sonictron comes to mind, not sure whether I spelled it correctly. It operates in Quebec.
I think more profit could come from recycling. I’m not sure whether the governement has a monpoly in Recycling.
Of course you can have a ‘domestic property’, buy and and dispose of YOUR goods as you want.
I have a feeling that you believe in “wage slavery”, please explain?
We will democratically and WORLDWIDELY overturn the capitalistic system with a free revocable delegation, inspirated from the Commune de Paris of 1871 and the two russian revolution. All of the modern socialist’s revolution were made this way, we need to expand this worldwide (and it is starting inFrance, Grece, Tunisia, Egypt, …).
I’m sorry, for some reason, this is funny and frightening in the same time. I’ll let someone else elaborate on this point.
You say “There’s nothing wrong with consuming, provided you pay for it. If I payed, I can buy whatever I please.” But if you individually consume more than the PIB of your country, it is over-consumation. What gives you the right, YOU, to consume more than what the society can offer?
I don’t think you grasp economics, I have the right to consume as much as I want as long as I offer something in return(money, service,/goods) equivalent to the value of that which I receive. Equivalence is established between the individuals that decide to make a trade.
Example:
Service Provider: Drewie G. Brando
Services offered: Scrubbing toilets
Price:25$ /hour
Notice how the price is subjective, you might think you should be payed more, and you have every reason to think that.
Although, if you don’t manage to find an employer that shares your ideals, your demand is meaningless.
I want more money for myself to, I want a million dollars/hour for riding a bike in public, naked, I need to find someone who values my services just as much as me and is willing to pay me a million dollars.
A critical way of consuming is based on the exchange of information between the consumers, not on false advertising.
False advertising is called fraud, I don’t think it should be outlawed though.
Take Walmart, I hate Walmart, not because of the way they treat they’re employers and all that silly jazz, simply because the waiting lines are long and most of they’re goods are second hand class crap to me. What do I do you ask? I don’t buy from them…
If the girl next door promised me lemonade that gives me super powers yet it turns out it doesn’t work. What do I do? I don’t buy from her and I’ll possibly give her a bad reputation, which in turn will result in a profit loss from her, and her bussiness will fail.
What are your solutions? WORK EVEN MORE! HAHAHA PATHETIC! We offer TRUE solutions to each every terran, the solution to be really free!
I do not think this solution is less pathetic then the one you are offering.
Every society started somewhere, work leads to more productivity, profit leads to innovation, naturally.
Countries like Thailand,Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea and Mauritius have slowly abandoned child labour simply because of the increased prosperity.
Even Quebec started off with child labor, as parents earned more money they were able to afford to send they’re kids to school.
There are no other solutions. If you close the factory, children are forced into prostitution. Donating money to the poor does not help either.
If we analyze the develeppement of Africa, we can see that it declined through out the past 50-60 years. How come? we donated around 520 trillion dollars. Maybe investments(starting factories, sweatshops, stores) are better then donating money? We have to put money to good use.
Look, please keep on the subject. Quebec is not broked. If we would sold all of our hospitals, bridges, schools, etc. to the private entreprise, we wouldn’t have any dept. It is like a mortgage, you need to calculate the actives and the passives. Quebec is one of the biggest owner in Canada (according to the population).
Unfortunately Quebec is broke, with or without the wonderfull rhetoric.
Please explain “Free Education” and what it means exactly?
Look, you are free to do what you want, when you want. But if you refuse to help the society by doing the minimum work that no one whan to do, then I don’t think you should benefit of the society. If you refuse to do the littering, then you will simply wont get your social salary and you will be invited to take care of yourself alone. Again, it is exactly like you would act with your child, girlfriend or friends. It is the base of responsability, a word that we often forget these days… If some one is a parasite enough to refuse to do the minimum work, you will not want to live with him, right?. It is the exact same thing!
This reminds me of central planning, especially the part with the salary.
Also please, define Society while your at it.
If I help a girl by offering her something(sex) am I not doing something to help Society.
This might sound liek a joke, it’s not. I’m trying to make a point so please do not get offended, I’ll apoligise in advance.
Who defines usefull work?
The free market offers the individual that which he determines as usefull work towards himself.
@Felipe : I am aware that libertarians are not the same as anarchist and I am also aware that they do not defend the status-quo. I think we (neo-marxist) are closer than libertarians that you think. We share the same wish to limit (and even eradic) the economic power of the State to maximize individual economic emancipation.
From what you told us, it sounds like your out to do the opposite.
Earlier you brought in Adam Smith, what does he have to do with your movement?
The only difference is that WE think that the State is only a tool for the burgess to ensure their grip over the workers and innovants and that the burgess limits the free economic emancipation the same way that the State does. Without the State to ensure the burgess’s grip, there will be an instant revolution caused by the economic antagonists that will lead to a socialist society even faster than what we have today.
“Burgeois” and “Worker” are constructs of the human mind. They are fascinating concepts, but they don’t mean anything.
I’m a worker and a “Bourgeois”, if your implying that a person stays in the same class forever you are commiting a fallacy.
The idea of separating people into classses is no different then separating people into races.
It reminds me of that crank, Simone de Beauvoir, one of the main founders of feminism.
In our mind, WE SHARE THE SAME FIGHT.
I don’t know about you, or anyone else here for that matter, but I don’t share any fights with anyone.
I just want my rights respected, low taxes(none woulbe be better) and lots of opportunity.
P:S:Try to answer the questions in order, when you have time. This way we don’t leave issues unchallenged.
Look, you are free to do what you want, when you want. But if you refuse to help the society by doing the minimum work that no one whan to do, then I don’t think you should benefit of the society. If you refuse to do the littering, then you will simply wont get your social salary and you will be invited to take care of yourself alone.
@unionrevolte I am now fully on your side with this statement. As long as you don’t force your socialist views on me then I have absolutely no problem with you building up your socialist society along with any other altruists out there. You can have your socialist society and we can have our capitalist society and the market will decide which is more successful.
In small communities socialism can actually do quite well because it’s easy to tell who is doing their share and who needs to be kicked out. I personally don’t think this scales well because as it grows it becomes easier and easier to exploit the system but if you think it can scale then I encourage you to try… as long as you leave me and other ancaps in peace.
It does quite “well”, assuming “Freetown Christiana” is your ideal of “paradise”.lol
@ Unionrevolt,
If everyone in your ideal society is going to get the same pay how are you going to decide what this universal salary is going to be? Who is going to decide this? For example, how would you decide “ok, everyone, no matter what they do for a living, is going to earn 50k a year.”
Ahh, nevermind I see its going to be a computer that takes all the money in the “pot” and divides it up equally between everyone on the planet. And this will all be public. So a brain surgeon will get the same salary as a department store greeter? Someone who’s productivity is many times greater then someone else’s will get the same salary?
What did Bill Gates take from you in order to create Windows? In other words, what did you personally have to give up so that Bill Gates could create Windows? To the extent that he “took” something from someone else (other than yourself) in order to create Windows, how would this be any business of yours? In other words, who elected you to represent and “fight for” the damaged parties in this supposed “theft”?
Z.
You should really go back to school to learn logic. Don’t try to use petty false-arguments in order to dilute an argument to personal attacks, especially when you’re wrong. You’re not impressing anyone here, so you may as well stop trying.
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Your comment made little to no sense.
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When did I talk about the State investing $1,000 in something? The only thing in which I’d like the State to invest is its own death. If I own $10 and Bill Gates owns $100 or $100 million, sure, he can buy planes and islands and shit, but it doesn’t affect the fact that I only own $10 worth of property. It just means he can own more stuff, and who cares? He’ll put that money in a bank account to lower interest rates so that other companies can pop up into existence and compete, lowering prices. That is what will make my $10 seem like it’s worth a whole lot more.
I particularly enjoyed the part where he said that Gates used Thomas Edison’s invention of electricity to create Microsoft, and he didn’t give him his share.LOL
Bill Gates should really time travel more often. Robber baron!