This is exacly the problem, people don’t see the state as an entity which follows rational rules. They do not see it as a group of individuals, but as some sort of phantom spirit that is the collective will of the people, devoid of rational rules and in posession of its own rules which cannot be replicated by any other institution but for other states.
Excellent post.
Must be #2 then. Thanks for clearing all doubt.
Z.
Government is a god. They build temples and monuments to prove it.
So basically “who watches the watchmen?”
Didn’t you know that 200 year old documents will stop any possible government abuses and is totally fool proof… See, we’ve got this all worked out.
thanks.
I think also the government does not work on the level of reason. What I’m saying is the government’s only necessary existence is to serve on the base-level (fight or flight actions with no use of foresight/logic). That’s why arguments with ‘defenders of gov’t’ have them wondering ‘who’s going to stop the bad people’. The arguments with ‘defenders as gov’t’ are not about the logical points in the argument but about ‘who’s going to stop corruption’. The logical points are glossed over and usually simply ignored as their psyche interpretation of government is some kind of superhero or “phantom spirit” defending the innocent from bad people. The government serves the people in those events that are of base-level actions.
So it is exactly what you said Late Andrew, but I add that their counter-arguments are of the the realm that is “devoid of rational rules”. Meaning the person I argue against that is defending the gov’t isn’t focused on the logical points but only on the disappearance of their god protector that will stop the bad people and so they only counter argue 'who’s going to stop the fraud, corruption, and dangers of the world.
excellent insightful comment Late Andrew. That helped me think this through more.
I add that those temples and monuments are built to not only honor their state but to appease the demons. The nightmares and phantoms that creep in the night whichever is the latest fad boggieman. These temples of mighty granite were the criminals of the gov’t, usually victim-less crimes, are dragged to such montrous buildings that stand tall with carvings of another era or psyche with a seemingly impenetrable exterior material that says in and of itself, ‘don’t worry this will last through the heaviest of storms not exclusively the economic and winter kind’. The cop brings in the criminal of the gov’t up to the man in the black robe which this robe has this magical power that ushers a demand by it simply appearing upon his enterance into the room. Such a demand of instant respect by all staring at him and some even saying, “Yes your honor”. The politican outside at another similarly colossal structure waves his hands above the crowd that remind back to an ancient socery hand waving time that all, even the hand waver himself, have long forgotten. The appeasment of their fears with magical notions and promises that all will be well as long as he is allowed to continue solving all the worlds problems so they can sleep better at night… a fairy tale bedtime story for the masses.
I’m glad you introduced this into this thread it sheds so much truth to what the meaning of this thread involves.
not so much that, but what do the “watchmen” do? Why is there a government and what does the government deal with, what’s it’s job? I think everything the government does involves dealing with human base-level actions. So thereby arguments against ‘defenders of gov’t’ are not about logical points, though the anti-statist may be bringing up some very valid logical points. The ‘defender of gov’t’ flies passed those points in the argument and directly wonders ‘who’s going to stop all the bad people’, thus, the gov’t is present to deal with the fight or flight base-level actions that individual humans potentially make. That’s what defenders of gov’t see the gov’ts role as and thereby wonder who’s going to stop corruption, fraud, so-called illegitmate power hungry people, etc… obviously all of these are defined by the gov’t via legislation, executive orders, etc… as to what constitutes these. As you pointed out before, politics is about power and not, so much so, good philosophy, economics, etc… That’s what I’m saying with a slight twist. The gov’t only works and operates on the ill-advised power-level.
I think you’re right that the desire for government reaches outside of logic and reason and lives in the emotional base of humans. The desire for a protector, to have someone or something watching over us, taking care of us, etc. The problem is always that the people we elect to govern us are in fact just men. So they are just as vulnerable to corruption and error and illogic and irrationality as anyone else. I often find myself struggling with this conundrum myself. If we are going to be watched over by watchmen, who is going to watch the watchmen?
Honestly, this is a magical fairytale of your own creation that decides to utter ignore the history, and traditions of the legal system rather than address the so that it can create a fairytale out of it for your own appeasement. Really, its pathetic.
Did you bother analyzing the fact that the robe is a tradition evolving from English tradition, and “Your Honor” is nothing more than an old reference style and that the reasons these have not changed is that the judicial system is not to be tampered with, but to bloom from centuries of judicial tradition. The fact that such customs are maintained is a very potent symbol of the fact that the law ought not to change by the whims of government, and politicians.
Honestly, have you ever bothered to pay attention to current events? People do not have such reverence for the judicial system, rather they are very harsh critics at time, and do not sit still when a judge issues a decree that they do not agree with. For instance, look at how the judicial system of California legalized gay marriage only to have a statewide initiate ban it.
Instead of unmasking a popular fairytale, you have create one of your own so that you may go to sleep at night better, a fairytale that does not bother to actually base itself on reality.
lol - i underlined and bolded it for you.
yes. that is the point of the symbols and don’t forget the granite buildings that I mentioned. “…not to change by the whims…” as you put it. Those giza pyramids and mummies are still going, and going, and going…
good point and such an excellent example of yet again of what the gov’t involves itself with - sex.
Well, I did call it a bedtime story for the masses, appealing to stupidity, emotions, etc… as bloom in his last post pointed out very well.
Your appeal to reality is only the more reason to get the control hungers out of the hands of humans. Humans given the tools of bad habits plus a tendency to think they have the holy grail of reality and everybody else is “pathetic” is that fire and brimstone upon the Washington Mount. In a position to put that to use with powers amassing consolidation and control would-be dictators stamping their image of reality upon everybody with coercion find a home away from home. Know it all ego-maniacs climb high up the ladder of where base-level attachments are nurtured and endless cravings are not the limit but the way to excel in power.
I share this with you lam. since you share at least this part with me:
“…and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, ‘All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me’.” (The Bible; KJV)
Would you say the nature of government, unfortunately, encourages this more than discouraging this? (“this” meaning that which “reaches… emotional base of humans”) Could you explain and maybe expand on this a bit?
The way I think of it is that government is just a reflection of human nature. I think government is a construct of human design that teaches me a lot about what it means to be human. So the nature of government, a paternalistic institution that functions mainly to protect man from each other, is a reflection of something very deep within the human psyche. And that is fear of the unknown, whether it be an unknown person, event, time or threat. The people who love government tend to think that it exists to protect them. The people who hate government think the government does more to harm them than help them. To the first group, it makes perfect sense for lots of things to be controlled/watched over/provided by the government. To the second group, all those things are wishful thinking. To the second group, they’re a trojan horse. So I think people’s feelings about government can tell us a lot about their worldview and what they think of human nature.
Fear and hope and greed…these are common human emotions and I think they are the motivation behind a lot of the structures man creates. In my mind, government is a combination of all three and it feeds on those emotions.
The dealings of or need of paternalism is case by case bases, would you agree? I’m not arguing against gov’t directly as I don’t want to devolve from my OP.
good point. i think the gov’t is in place due to this too as it operates on this base-level sphere. I think what else i’m trying to point out as well is because the gov’t is involved with dealing with fear (for one) that the gov’t is thereby susceptible to what fear does. The gov’t isn’t fully armored by what it deals with and since the gov’t (the individuals working closely in the gov’t) deals with nasty things it’s all the much harder to withstand such nasty things from penetrating the very institution that tries to stop them. In other words the gov’t is apart and inseparable from the sphere of nasty things. Another way of putting this is since the gov’t is trying to stop the “fear of the unknown” those ‘things in the dark’ then the gov’t is constantly crying foul and shouting out threats, dangers, etc… It’s (the people that work within it obviously) always beating the alarms of something. thoughts?
I agree. This is why when I argue with a ‘defender of gov’t’ their appeal is not to the logical points but to ‘who will protect us from the bad guys’.
That last sentence is very insightful. It does all seem to boil down to for ‘defenders of gov’t’ their perception of human nature, ie. the chaotic aspect, when it comes to what the gov’t is here for. It’s that effort to control pandora’s box that the appeal to gov’t is made in. Control what is feared. I would say any call to control is due to the caller’s own fear.
Hope seems to be due to fear and greed. Hope is what some people have in their expections to get out of the pit of fear and greed. I don’t think gov’t actually gives hope, meaning I don’t know anything the gov’t has done that offered hope in and of itself. It seems hope is always offered by gov’t due to the gov’ts own dealings with fear and greed. I think there is a slight nuance to that. something i need to think about a bit more. What do you think?
For example, the appeal to compassion, ie. welfare, humanitarian aid, etc… that gov’t also offers but that again is to retrieve the needs to fight off another fear, ie. people are not able to get their needs met because of bad people (evil capitalists, etc…). I can’t think of examples in which gov’t people are advocating a flight from something. It seems to be always a fight of something, not too sure, again I’ll need to think on that more too. thoughts?
Also would you say that somebody that is always trying to control something beyond some minimal criteria, would such a person be the rising candidate for gov’t work?
Alright, I want to try to add some personal context to what I’m saying here in an effort to aid this thought process.
Since I was a little kid, I’ve always had issues with authority figures. Always. My parents have also disappointed me time and time again by putting their own selfish interests in front of their responsibilities to me as a son. Any time someone tries to tell me now that they should be given power to look out for my best interests, I immediately feel fear. Fear of being betrayed. It’s just an instinctive reaction at this point. Thus my skepticism of government. In particular, paternalistic government.
So my tendency to distrust government is rooted in a lifetime of personal experience with authority figures and the feeling of being misled and misinformed by people I was told I was supposed to be able to trust.
People who have never had experiences like I have probably don’t feel at all like I do and furthermore do not share many of my suspicions, skepticism or doubt. Thomas Sowell called it the “unrestrained vision.” It’s the idea that with the right people or right system or whatever that all the world’s ills can be gotten rid of. Poverty, war, hatred, etc. I am of the restrained vision, I believe these things are a part of the human condition they cannot be gotten rid of anymore than the human need to breathe. They are innate qualities of humanity.
Government, for better or worse, is, in my mind, a manifestation of some innate quality of humanity and a product of human fallibility and the understanding that people are not always rational, reasonable or logical. I think there will always be governments and so I do not imagine a world without government but a world where we can have an honest discussion about these topics without it becoming an ideological shouting match.
I say this because government, as a product of humanity, is just as much at risk of being corrupted as any individual. It’s just that when ideology becomes the norm, both sides become intellectually dishonest and pretend to have one simple solution.
Some people really do trust the government. I don’t. But I also don’t trust man to behave without some form of government. This is what I think makes this issue so hard to navigate: there is no answer, no permanent solution. It’s just an endless struggle.
I second this.
There are also people that don’t exploit this aspect of him or her self. I know of people, including myself, that deal with fear without the need for an authority figure outside of my friends and family, to step in and stop me. I find the government to be a spin-off of that part of me that inhibits fear from maximally eroding my ability to live a life without a government stepping in to stop me. The gov’t aspect seems to be that part of human nature that inhibits fear from taking over and vacating personal responsibility. Meaning it is the ability of a human to do such on their own, but some people are not so gov’t has roots in operating within the ‘flight or fight’ sphere. Confronting the nightmares of people that overcome their own ill-wills. It is a form of forgetting oneself.
Only logic could make a statement about what is possible or not; contingent about future events. Logic also shows that it is possible to not have a gov’t. I understand everything else you stated but I don’t think “always be governments” is grounded in anything but opinion. I respect you opinion and since it is just as possible to have no gov’t, contingently speaking, it is also possible that gov’t will continue indefinitely. I think this though is a side-topic not directly related to the OP.
Yes. I understand the gov’t is an outgrowth of the human psyche amidst the universe - what else could it be - so that’s a given. I’m focused on the level in which the gov’t operates and thereby also flutters in the winds of unhibituated impulses. Gov’t being of the individual psyche, many ideas by many people over the 1000’s of years, trying to deal with corruption. But when the gov’t itself has no grounding by any logical, moral, or what have you, anchor to keep itself steady and focused then it has no chance against the might of corruption, don’t you think? I mean what keeps the gov’t from becoming corrupt if it has no counter force?
thanks for the discussion. this is interesting.
Everybody follows their self interest. They also have no positive obligations towards you.
Anarcho-Capitalism is not a system.
Except they’re not. Self interest is however, and that is what you are seeing play out - a group of individuals following their self interest, have implemented a scam whereby they can be parasites and live of the work of others. They’ve convinced people like you, it’s in their self interest to have government around - there is nothing natural about it.
How collectivist. Individuals act. “Humanity” does not.
It is, if you believe government is inevitable - but it’s not.
They’re my parents, Conza, I think they have responsibilities.
bloom,
to give a little background on my perspective.
I grew up with my grandfather telling me stories of living in a mountain village with plenty of good food. The only gov’t was a policeman that came maybe once a year from Rome to check out what was going on in the region. Their village was high up in a mountain valley on the central-eastern part of Italy. And when the policeman came some people would gather in the place to drink lots of wine and listen to the news he shared of the going-on’s in Rome and of his travels. He was more a news person than a policeman to them. He came to America and the first meal he had was a hot dog at a stand in New York City and thought it was disguisting and asked his father when they would be going back home to where there was good food. Of course though Mussolini was why he came here. People always needing to move out of the way of control freaks.[:P]
Even as I grew up our focus was on family and I actually hardly ever thought that there was a gov’t in the U.S. Then in my teen years I heard more and more about politics cause of the TV and it was easy to see politicans lied and it was all stupid. I never have been into talking about politics as much as I have been of recent when I first came to this forum in all honesty. And that’s because I use my own mind and don’t readily understand why some people need a father or mother figure in another person. I grew up learning more about spirituality, farming, family stories, good books, appreciation of the arts (I grew up learning how to play the piano, took some drawing classes, I sometimes write fictional stories for the fun of it, etc…) and most definitely the woods, ie. late teen years is when I began to hunt, fish, backpack, etc…but I had always walked in the woods from a very, very early age. I feel that I live without gov’t all the time and the moments that the gov’t shows up in my life is simply to take something away from me and to mess things up.