Hobbesian argument for government

[Johnny_Doe]

But how can social order(people) prevent government(people)/the establishment(people)/people from waging war against other people?

[Johnny_Doe]

People don`t submit, they support an entity that will coerce “cooperation”/or create rules etc that benefit the supporters(not necessarily everyone).

[Solid_Choke]

Jasay kicks out every leg the Hobbesian hypothesis has to stand on in Chapter 1.5 of The State. Give it a read.

[MaikU]

@Johnny Doe

I would say we need neither anarchy nor what we have today, but minarchism.

The problem is “we” word. You talk for everybody. That pretty much means that you are ready to coercively force strangers into accepting your preferances. You are thinking about other people as some statistical bunch and think, that they will like what you choose for them “for their own good” or something. That’s very bad mentality, man.

[cobracarg]

@Johnny Doe

“I would say we need neither anarchy nor what we have today, but minarchism.”

Governments grow over time… even a limited government is inefficient, and government’s way of ‘curing’ inefficiencies is to set up more government programs… People accuse anarchism of being an utopian idea but I think believing in an always limited government as a utopian idea.

@Johnny Doe

“What about the people who want a government/central planning/regulations etc, and therefore support/vote for politicians who promise to coerce them into helping the poor, sick, old etc(or give the voters priviliges), i.e. what would stop them in an anarchy?”

It wouldnt… you need to read on the subject before critiquing it…

@Johnny Doe

“But how can social order(people) prevent government(people)/the establishment(people)/people from waging war against other people?”

war costs alot of resources… most people do not have the time or resources to engage in war as we see it today. Of course, war is still a possibility but it would be limited in my opinion. Also, I hold to the Misesian framework that free markets always brings about peace. Why would you want to fight your trading partners?

@Johnny Doe

“People don`t submit, they support an entity that will coerce “cooperation”/or create rules etc that benefit the supporters(not necessarily everyone).”

ahh, ok then government has to be justified now! whats that one quote by Thoreau…“Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it”

[aervew]

This imo:

‎"It is self-contradictory to contend that people cannot be trusted to make moral decisions in their daily lives but can be trusted to vote for or accept leaders who are morally wiser than they." -Murray Rothbard

This contradiction is inescapable.

Uhh yeah? The specialization of labour? Im pretty sure you are less competent than pencil producer.

Besides, the characteristics that politicians strive for(aka charisma, trustworthiness) are EXACTLY those that constitute themselves as superior moral beings in the eyes of the voters