Hypothetical

  1. Asteroid on the way.

  2. Goverments don’t exist.

  3. Asteroid not destroyed. We’re dead?

Keep in mind:

  1. Governments don’t exist. = Existing demand for communications, which would cause free market development of transportation (a capital good, according to Senior and Mises) to put up communications systems of increasing weight; existing demand and market for weapons; etc.
  2. Asteroid destroyed. We’re fine. We’re not dead.

There are no such things as positive externalities, because as the classical authors who invented externalities pointed out (either Whately or Bailey or Longfield; I can check my notes if anyone wants) division of labour by defintion causes so-called positive externalities; in fact any action does; for instance, when people cooperate to make a campfire, one person getting wood, other producing a flame, the other cooking, there are nonrival benefits.

Then came along other others who made the concept a defense of government for no good reason, when the argument was originally a defense of free division of labour.

Government does not provide lighthouses (I think Jevon’s made use of the lighthouse example first, but in second, incorrect way) better than division of labour by anyone else. Such is the definition of the division of labour in a barter context.

There is no need for the State to solve anything. That should not even be an option in the first place.

when people cooperate to make a campfire, one person getting wood, other producing a flame, the other cooking, there are nonrival benefits

Sure, but in the context of a developed market economy the same isn’t true. The gathering of the wood, production of the flame or whatever else will be communicated through the price mechanism, now, if there were further gains that weren’t transmitted through this mechanism, then yes, there would be positive externalities. But this doesn’t invalidate the argument of externalities.

Government does not provide lighthouses (I think Jevon’s made use of the lighthouse example first, but in second, incorrect way) better than division of labour by anyone else. Such is the definition of the division of labour in a barter context

But the fact that lighthouses are provided as club goods, and not in the “arms length exchange” manner of most other goods already suggests that there is some physical or economic characteristic that makes them different.

sigh someone has already linked the literature probably, but here:

Individuals are going to die. They are going to lose their possessions. If they take out insurance against the asteroid for their lives and homes, they transfer liability into the hands of a small group of people, who all have the monetary incentive (on top of life-death) to save the earth. They also now have the means readily at their disposal.

You might think its a little absurd for people to still be worrying about money, but clearly people are, otherwise there could be no free rider problem and everyone would just donate their money and then there’s no problem anyway.

I have an answer, I have an answer!11!1!!

Anarchists would just spontaneously form a big government to solve this messy “asteroid problem” .

On more serious note:

If author of this thread believes, that it’s the only disaster anarchic society could not deal with, then I am ready to conclude that you won! Free-market won’t solve the problem. So what? How many asteroids hit the earth during your or your ancestors lifetime? I counted only tiny rocks… no big deal, geez.

Are you ready to surrender your freedom and happiness which comes when people act voluntarily without coercion (of some thugs) just to have a government, that can send people to Moon and destroy asteroids (or cities with nukes) but is completely incompetent in thousands other things that we deal with in REAL life???

P.S. Jackson LaRose is hero of this thread, I liked all his posts, wonderful :slight_smile:

It has broader implications. If people cannot voluntarily solve the collective action problem in this case, they may not be able to solve it in other cases, giving rise to a host of justifications for state defense, roads, etc.

Hayekianxyz is not a big government advocate. As far as I can work out, he wants government as small as humanly possible but is needed to solve collective action / public goods problems.

If people cannot voluntarily solve the collective action problem in this case, they may not be able to solve it in other cases, giving rise to a host of justifications for state defense, roads, etc.

I thought he agreed in some sense, that free-market could solve such “easy” problems like roads. At least, that was my impression from OP. That’s why he chose something extreme, I believe.

Hayekianxyz is not a big government advocate. As far as I can work out, he wants government as small as humanly possible but is needed to solve collective action / public goods problems.

Thanks for clarfication, but I don’t think that makes much difference, at least to me (big/small, whaterver, violence is violence). Furthermore, he keeps using examples of BIG governments. Why he thinks small government would send people to Moon (for what reason)? Why he thinks small government would stop the asteroid?

P.S. I am now aware that you first suggested same answer as me (I read only half posts of the first page.)

So long as I’ve been introduced to Rothbard and anarcho-capitalism, I’ve been unable to rationally defend governments (as we see them today) at all.

What is a public good? Law? Roads? Health care? Tooth care? Utilities? Food? Entertainment? These things are neither “public” nor “private” goods in and of themselves. They are just goods to those who can use them as such.

The only things that are “public” are things owned by the government. If the government owns all food and food production, is food now a public good? If food is then relinquished from government control, is it still a public good?

Your example of nonrival benefits is a terrible example due to the fact that it occurs within the non-extended order in which an individual has knowledge of that which is benefiting him, he can clearly see the positive externalities that are benefiting him and all of his social instincts come into play that drive the individual to want to be part of that community producing the positive externalities. However, the example simply does not translate into the extended order in which the individual simply does not have the knowledge of the positive externalities that are effecting him, there is simply a disconnect between him and their producers, and no social instincts pushing the individual being benefited to form a more integrated community with the producers of the positive externalities. As the research of Elinor Ostrom has shown, when it comes to the study of externalities, the community in which the externalities are being produced is critical for how well the externalities, both negative and positive, are managed.

By the way, externalities were not “invented”, they were discovered by classical authors just like the division of labor.

Tell the Irish that whose state was placed under cruel imperialism for centuries because they lacked a state that could succesfuly coordinate a centralized defense against the attacking english forces.

Whately argued, “[I]n a great variety of cases, nearly the same time and labour are required to perform the same operation on a larger or on a smaller scale—to produce many things, or one, of the same kind…. For instance, suppose a number of travellers proceeding through some nearly desert country, such as many parts of America, and journeying together in a kind of cafila or caravan for the sake of mutual security: when they came to a halting-place for the night, they would not fail to make some kind of extemporaneous arrangement, that some should unlade and fodder the cattle, while others should fetch fire-wood from the nearest thicket, and others, water from the spring : some in the mean time would be occupied in pitching the tents, or erecting sheds of boughs; others in preparing food for the whole party; while some again, with their arms in readiness, would be posted as sentinels in suitable spots, to watch that the rest might not be surprised by bands of robbers. It would be evident to them that but for such an arrangement, each man would have to go both to the spring for water, and to the wood for fuel would have to prepare his own meal with almost as much trouble as it costs to dress food for the whole and would have to perform all these tasks encumbered with his arms, and on the watch against a hostile attack. Of course, if some of our supposed party chanced to be by nature or by practice peculiarly qualified for some particular task, and others for another, these would be respectively allotted to them in preference; but if there were no such inequality, the division would still take place, and the chief advantage of it would still be felt” (Whately 1831: 145-148).

Longfield agreed, “Roads, harbours, canals, light-houses, offer further examples of the benefit of many being as it were partners in works of a certain description: each derives almost as much advantage from them as if they were exclusively his own, while the expense of making them is shared with a number. According as the density of the population increases, a greater number of such works can be carried on, and finished to a higher degree of perfection. The number of persons to enjoy the advantage of them is increased, while the share which falls to each of the expense of making them is diminished by the entire being shared with a greater number. All the duties of protection and government, &c. which belong to the state, and are provided for at the public expense, are of this nature” (Longfield 1934:96).

Jevons disputed with Whately: that since each benefits from these sorts of goods regardless of who produced the economic good, none will produce the economic good, because each will expect to benefit from lighthouses that they had not build, and because each will not expect to sell lighthouses that they had built—that the production of “public” economic goods that all enjoy will be proportionally lesser, and the production of “personal” economic goods that not all enjoy will be proportionally greater—that government must subsidise the production of public economic goods, which have “positive externalities”, such as benefiting from the clock-tower they had not built, and government must tax the production of economic goods, which have “negative externalities”, such as suffering from the pollution they had not caused (Jevons 1905:40-42).

Machlup agreed with Jevons, similarly, personal cost and personal value different from ‘social cost’ and ‘social value’. Machlup argued, “Often, society, or some members of society, will find that they can enjoy an incidental advantage for which nothing is paid to the producer. For example, if a building company constructs an especially beautiful house on our street, it gets paid from the buyer whatever it is worth to him, but receives nothing from the rest of us whose enjoyment is distinctly increased. (The opposite may occur too: if the house is ugly, the price paid for it by the buyer does not reflect the displeasure caused to the rest of us….[and] private cost does not fully reflect the social cost, the latter including the discomfort suffered by those who have to stand the ugly sight.) Thus, if the price received by a producer reflects only the value to the buyer, but not any incidental benefits to others….the social value (social product) will exceed the private value ([private] product)” (Machlup 1958:57).

Whately and Longfield noticed, however, was that this was nothing more than the mere division of labour. To attribute externalities to the process of producing, by means of the division of labour, some goods and not other goods, is to be arbitrarily prejudiced to the production of some goods and not other goods, because the principle is inherent in the division of labour. There is not special property of public or private goods. The generality of the examples demonstrates this. The question, according to Whately and Longfield, is merely of scale and respective fixed costs. No more. No less.

Example: “[T]he fire lit to warm one will supply heat enough for several; but although all would derive equal advantage from the fire, they will not therefore occupy themselves exactly in the same manner in its production. If one basketful of fuel is enough for the fire which warms ten men, it would still be absurd for each man to go and fetch the tenth of a basket-full, and take a tenth part of the trouble of arranging the fire. They would at once see the advantage of one fetching the fuel, one arranging the fire, and the rest in like manner employing themselves in some manner for the common benefit. In selecting different employments, each would naturally be directed to the one most suited to his disposition and abilities, and if any person was fit for only one employment, that would naturally be thrown upon him, as being the only means of making his labour available” (Longfield 1934:88).

Note: Rothbard added: “military protection, dams, highways, etc., are important. People desire that they be supplied. Yet wouldn’t each person tend to slacken his payment, hoping that the others would pay? But to employ this as a rationale for State provision of such services is a question-begging example of circular reasoning. For this peculiar condition holds only and precisely because the State, not the market, provides these services! The fact that the State provides a service means that, unlike the market, its provision of the service is completely separated from its collection of payment. Since the service is generally provided free and more or less indiscriminately to the citizens, it naturally follows that every individual—assured of the service—will try to shirk his taxes. For, unlike the market, his individual tax payment brings him nothing directly. And this condition cannot be a justification for the State action; for it is only the consequence of the existence of the State action itself” (Rothbard 1956:257). To coerce people into paying, on the other hand, is not pareto-optimal since they clearly prefer other things, otherwise they wouldn’t need to be coerced (Rothbard 1956:256).

Hoppe summarized, “For something to be a good it must be recognized and treated as scarce by someone… Their private or public character depends on how few or how many people consider them to be goods, with the degree to which they are private or public changing as these evaluations change and ranging from one to infinity. Even seemingly completely private things like the interior of my apartment or the color of my underwear can thus become public goods as soon as somebody else starts caring about them. And seemingly public goods, like the exterior of my house or the color of my overalls, can become extremely private goods as soon as other people stop caring about them. Moreover, every good can change its characteristics again and again” (Hoppe 1989:30).

In fact, “[i]n every manufacture, the operation of this principle may be detected. The calculations and measurings that are necessary for one will suffice for a thousand articles. Observe a smith or a carpenter employed at some casual job, how he eyes it, and reflects, and measures, and calculates, and turns over the materials again and again, and if he has an assistant, how much time will be spent in considering what is the shortest, surest, and best mode of doing the work. If that were his regular trade, the same quantity of thought would do for a number of such jobs” (Longfield 1834:96-97; emphasis added).

To coerce people into paying, on the other hand, is not pareto-optimal since they clearly prefer other things, otherwise they wouldn’t need to be coerced

Seriously, to argue this is to miss the point of externalities. For any given individual, by assumption, were the choice between production of the good and non-production of the good, they would choose the former, even if that required paying for it. Yet, in the vast majority of instances that is not the choice they face. Depending on the actions of others there are two possible choices, the first is between receiving the good no matter what and either paying or not paying and the second is between not receiving the good regardless of whether their choice is to pay or not to pay. In either case, the incentives are such that the individual will choose to not cooperate.

As such the state is just one way of facilitating the cooperation necessary for the provision of such goods.

Rothbard’s argument precisely misses the point that there are gains from trade in the market that aren’t achieved because the necessary incentives aren’t in place. In essence Rothbard’s is saying

  1. Assume the market never leaves any opportunities for gains from trade.
  2. Externalities imply that the market would fail to exploit all grains from trade.
  3. There, externalities can’t exist.

Of course, it flies in the face of empirical realities such as club goods, various types of institutional structures and all the negative (positive) externalities that we see over(under)produced.

“For something to be a good it must be recognized and treated as scarce by someone… Their private or public character depends on how few or how many people consider them to be goods, with the degree to which they are private or public changing as these evaluations change and ranging from one to infinity. Even seemingly completely private things like the interior of my apartment or the color of my underwear can thus become public goods as soon as somebody else starts caring about them. And seemingly public goods, like the exterior of my house or the color of my overalls, can become extremely private goods as soon as other people stop caring about them. Moreover, every good can change its characteristics again and again”

Hoppe confuses externalities and public goods, the two “problems” may well be related, but they’re different. Hoppe expends a great deal of energy trying to make the point that there’s no clear distinction between public and private goods, but this isn’t hardly a novel point he’s making. The whole point of this topic was to provide an example (taken off of MR) of what Samuelson called a “pure public good”, of which “consumption” is completely non excludable and completely non-rivalrous. But there’s no reason to dichotomize goods as either purely public or purely private, most goods will usually fit into both categories, the extent to which they fall into one depends two margins: excludability and rivalry in consumption.

Hoppe is one very confused individual.

By the way, the irony is that in more than one place Hoppe implicitly recognises public goods. Such as in his discussion of housing and land arrangements in anarcho capitalism and his discussion of family structure and the role it plays.

Hoppe is not confused… you are confused!

this is a fun game.

Hoppe is not confused… you are confused!

this is a fun game.

I think that would qualify, in Jonathan’s eyes at least, as an unsubstantiated assertion! But then, perhaps an assertion can only be unsubstantiated when the person making it disagrees with you… I’m not sure, I’m a little confused on that one.

I’m not sure, I’m a little confused on that one.

and not just that one!

you really walked into that didn’t you ? :wink:

This is exactly what I was thinking.

Edit> Replying to Snowflake but quoting is not working.

Individuals are going to die. They are going to lose their possessions. If they take out insurance against the asteroid for their lives and homes, they transfer liability into the hands of a small group of people, who all have the monetary incentive (on top of life-death) to save the earth. They also now have the means readily at their disposal.

You might think its a little absurd for people to still be worrying about money, but clearly people are, otherwise there could be no free rider problem and everyone would just donate their money and then there’s no problem anyway

THANK YOU!

Finally, somebody has got the point! I was asking for an explanation of how cooperation may be facilitated, not for a reiteration of the alleged efficiency of the market or non-existence of public goods! That said, I don’t think this particular means is plausible, and I especially think that there would be economies of scale involved in government provision of these goods.

I’m flattered :stuck_out_tongue:

Do tell…

The entrepreneurs might just be able to work on contingency fee as well. It doesn’t cost anyone anything to sign any number of contracts with entrepreneurs working on contingency, and then after one of them had built a giant laser, he could rightfully collect his prize.

So presumabley s/he could go get a bunch of loans. The loaners would be entitled to whatever interest rate (depending on the likelihood of the entrepreneur being successful). In this way, people have an incentive actually fork out and contribute to stopping the asteroid, instead of just sitting on their butts waiting for someone else to do it. Its free money. People will be rushing to make this loan to our entrepreneur.

I think the above is a pretty great idea, and I don’t want to get side tracked so feel free not to respond to the following: The free rider ‘problem’ may not be a problem. It may be possible if its enough for the world’s 100 wealthiest men all kick in a couple mil, though the exact number depends on the engineering of the problem. The worst case being that averting the asteroid requires absolutely everyone to contribute their full amount to stopping the asteroid.

(Interestingly enough in this last scenario there’s no possibility of free riding so everyone would be willing to contribute)

I never said they couldn’t solve it. And I think my hypothetical entrepreneurs would try to deal with the asteroid as efficiently as possible to improve their profits.

To expand on my contigency fee idea:

It is assumed that the optimal position for people is to be a free rider. I deny this. It is only optimal to be a free rider if someone else will solve your problem for you. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to solve the problem, then there’s no chance for you to free-ride, and it becomes advantageous to get involved with providing the public good.

Signing a contigency contract allows you to do this. If another group solves the problem, you pay nothing. In the event that they don’t, you automatically abandon trying to be a free rider and become part of the solution. This is the optimal position for individuals in the public goods problems. You want to be a free rider unless your participation is absolutely necessary.

Since people will want to sign contingency contracts for as little liability as possible, the most appealing contracts will be spread out across large numbers of people. In this way, the number of possible free riders will be minimized. I think dudes living in caves on islands may free ride, just because the information costs are so high. But it depends on the specifics of the problem.

It is true that signing a contigency contract exposes one to the risk of having to pay out for the public good, but there is also a risk associated with being a free rider. The optimal position is to ensure that the asteroid will be stopped, but try to skimp out on as much payment as possible.

The penalty for free riding could be compounded by any number of things, such as boycott/social stigma, etc. Walmart might be able to threaten people with an extra 20$ fee next time they go to walmart if they don’t sign the walmart contigency contract. This would create a market for other stores to beat walmart on prices, but the time preference of individuals might make this window of opportunity too small to take advantage of. Its pay $20 next time you shop at walmart, or pay 15$ a month from now if walmart manages to provide the public good.

For simplicitly, i’ve assumed walmart is promulgating this contract, but an entrepreneur could just as easily get the cooperation of a large number of businesses by offering them a cut of the proceeds.

We are also assuming that everyone is personally liable for their lives/property. They may have shifted their liabilites onto others, as in my insurance example. It is likely that everyone will belong to fairly large groups resembling neighborhood associations. I’ve imagined apartment complexes 50,000 people large. Anyway, you might contend that even if the liabilities of humanity can be consolidated into 7 insurance companies, that might still suffer the free rider problem, which brings my to my next section. (This is why I bring up contingency contracts, because I do not think the pooling of liabiltiy is enough to solve the problem 100%)

To expand on the role of government:

In this case, the status quo suffers from the public goods problem as our anarcho capitalists, since obviously every state wants to free ride off the efforts of another state. Only World Government would not suffer this kind of public good problem. Even then, I would say that government is the ultimate free rider, since it uses the money of others to advance its interests. Although this does not result in a free rider ‘problem’ in that the public good eventually gets provided.

Then there’s also the option that world government could simply do nothing, and let the people handle it somehow. After all, it takes time and effort to raise the revenue. I don’t know if this is likely, because of the PR hit the State would suffer, but its a possibility. I think if the State could get away with free riding, it would.

Its also worth noting that what enables the state to have a chance at providing the public good is its ability to coerce others to contribute. We can imagine a group of hackers, who do not claim territorial monopoly over provision of law, who hack into people’s bank accounts to raise the necessary funds.

Anyway, I hear you’ve had your account banned for some snide remarks on another thread. Nuts, because I want you to get back to me on this.

There’s some interesting neo-classical stuff on Dominant Assurance Contracts http://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/PrivateProvision.pdf