I am the 99%

Miscellaneous Current Events
61

“Please explain how you have “state-owned means of production” without a state.”

And there you go. What’s the old joke? Libertarians are the kids that got an A in econ and an F in history. If you knew anything about socialism, this wouldn’t be a question. At least Daniel and other folks here have some more nuanced arguments about the effects of non-statist socialism (as much as I may disagree with them) instead of instantly defaulting onto a Marxist understandings of it.

“And yet you had no problem backing, defending them, and attacking any who would criticize, without any pause at all. Again you should see my big surprised face. You might actually try educating yourself even slightly about something before you speak on it (which I know would be a new thing for you, but still. There’s a first time for everything.)”

Damn dude, no matter what it’s always aggro from you. That’s not to say I don’t bite back, but jesus. Take a chill pill. I think pretty much everyone’s calmed down a bit. They had no demands for, what, four weeks or so? They come up with a few in the past couple days, I don’t check the news, and suddenly I’ve never educated myself about anything? That’s pretty harsh coming from a guy that says all socialism is statist.

You know, I was actually going to put something thoughtful here about my take on the protests now and then realized none of it is really going to get through, so fuck it. Anyway, tell me how I’m a Maoist. You know a lot about, oh, everything. You and Mises deduced it all from your armchairs.

“I didn’t realize anyone condemned an entire group. Reading through this forum it sounds as though you were the biggest driving force behind conflating the criticisms about the complaints raised by the people in the photographs into the voice of an entire group of people. (So that you could attack people here for not being sympathetic to a large mass of people, and make your veiled populist threats.)”

While I’m flattered that you feel threatened by me, I’m not trying to threaten you. Just demonstrating that people are in a tough spot and they’re going to act crazy, and I can empathize with why. It must be a major ego blow to feel so threatened by someone you think is a girl. Must be why you keep calling me honey, sweety, and other names. It must also be why you go out of your way to throw in insults.

“I would love to see this trace. Please do share.”

The Koch Brothers fund Freedom Works who helps fund the Tea Party. Hell, I think the Kock brothers help fund the Tea Party directly. There’s the trace. It was (carry the three…) one step.

“Great. So stop saying you have a “right” to the services of others.”

Eh, I was going to respond to this, but I’m much more interested in the psychology behind your interest in me. You more than anyone else here seems pretty intent on engaging with me, in a really aggressive manner too. And you feel so threatened.

What was your relationship with your parents like?

62

You and Mises deduced it all from your armchairs.

Can we stop with the “Logical Deduction = Making Shit Up” canard or no?

63

As soon as we can stop the socialism = statism.

I realize I’ve been a dick, but I pretty much stopped with the “I don’t like it = statism,” after thinking about it for a little while.

That said, my criticisms of logical deduction run far deeper than a critique of Austrianism, and don’t really throw deduction out the window as a tool either. That’s something I’d love to discuss here if I thought it wouldn’t turn into accusations of me being a leftist emotional commie socialist marxist bitch. Hell, I’d rather just copy and paste Derrida under a new account that has a male avatar and an AnCap sounding name to be sure I was getting an honest response.

64

Unless by “history” you mean “etymology”, that makes absolutely no sense. And even in that case it’s barely even relevant. And most importantly, I didn’t exactly see an answer in there, and I must have missed your explanation of this “stateless socialism”. So, if you please…

Aggro? I don’t know what that means. I infer by your invocation of the Christ’s name and the 1980s slang you’re implying that I’m upset. It’s just text, hun. No need to get your panties in a twist. It’s not like I’m pressing the keys extra hard as I type them or something. You ladies need to learn not everything someone writes has an emotional charge behind it just because you have an emotional reaction to it.

Oh no. Not “suddenly”. You’ve displayed that characteristic for some time now. It was just one more example of you not having a clue what you’re talking about and yet having no problem talking anyway.

Still waiting for that explanation dear.

Was there a point to any of this? Or is this just you needing to take one of those pills?

You either didn’t read carefully enough or your self-preservation bias got the best of you, but I said nothing of feeling threatened by someone who actually chooses the handle “birthday pony”. I said you made threats. There’s a big difference between threats being made, and anyone actually feeling threatened.

Well, again, your handle is the gift of choice for every sweet 16 party, and your avatar was a smiling blonde girl until only recently. And you never denied it when questioned. Was I supposed to guess a homosexual male? Or are you supposed to be an actual horse? Or…is that name supposed to imply you’re every 16 year old girl’s dream? Wait. Your real name wouldn’t happen to sound a lot like “beaver” would it?

Please show me.

Wow. Simply amazing. So “the Tea Party can be easily traced back to a few think-tanks and big money” translates to “the Koch brothers gave money to some Tea Party organizations.” I’m sure everyone here is very impressed.

But just for good measure…where exactly does money go when it is given to “the Tea Party”? I mean, if someone makes a donation to the Republican Party, it essentially goes to the headquarters of the Republican National Committee at 310 First Street NE, Washington, D.C. 20003 and is ultimately handled by the chairman Reince Priebus. Likewise, if someone gives money to the Democrat Party, it goes to the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee at 430 South Capital Street SE, Washington, D.C., 20003 and is ultimately handled by the Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

Where does money given to “the Tea Party” go?

Gee, what a surprise. The most important, most damning comment to your entire philosophy from the whole post and you want to change the subject. You’re just the gift that keeps on giving. Maybe that’s why you chose such a handle.

This, from someone who voluntarily implies they are a male (and seems offended at the suggestion they are female), yet calls themself “birthday pony” and uses a blonde girl avatar.

65

BP: Socialism is, of course, distinguishable from statism or, to be more precise, the State. Socialism is a bundle of philosophical ideas about human nature and human society, most of which are easily proven to be false. The State has nothing to do with why socialism is factually incorrect.

The State and socialism are related because the State needs to disguise its true nature (plunder of the masses on threat of punishment or death) in order to retain moral legitimacy. States which fail to maintain legitimacy are easily toppled by ambitious, upwardly mobile newcomers who do a better job of maintaining an illusion of legitimacy.

In order to maintain the aura of legitimacy, the State begins to “take over” sectors of the economy. The Prince does not care whether you receive justice or not. He does care that you not bring legal challenges against his taxes and other decrees that end up making him look like the sociopathic control-freak, money-grubbing weasel that he is. In order to secure himself against legal challenges, the Prince begins to monopolize the court system and insist that all disputes be brought to his courts. In his courts, of course, the Prince need never worry about tax challenges or other legal challenges which might make him out to be the petty-crook-writ-large that he is.

And so we have socialism or, to be more precise, central planning and ownership of almost every line of production. As the system grows in size and complexity and consumes more and more resources, it requires an ever more hermetically sealed economic container from which capital cannot escape its inevitable taxation. Hence, the statutes, bureaucracies and regulations multiply. This is how socialism and statism are related.

Clayton -

66

Tadaa.

67

“Instead of saying ‘I am the 99%’ at the end, it should say: 'I should’ve been more responsible.”

So a crisis (that from an Austrian perspective is caused by government intervention) leads to working people being made unemployed, and the response from so-called Austrians is to blame those who are the victims? You’re kidding right? Even from your own standpoint, the people suffering under this recession are not to blame. So where the hell does “responsibility” come into it?

I smell an apologist.

68

People are not themselves to blame for the debt they themselves went into? I smell an apologist.

Edit: At the risk of sounding like a broken record…

Notice I only said “debt”. People are not to blame for losing their jobs, not getting jobs, their pensions/401k’s/IRA’s getting wiped out, etc. - at least not entirely.

69

Even then, government is a big part of the reason that college tuition and therefore- student debt is so high. I’d say some of these protestors are more angry at the way of life they were promised by their culture. You know, go to school get your degree and watch the money roll in. But someone seemed to forget to tell them what kind of degree to actually get. Or that perhaps going 6 figures into debt is not the only way to get into different types of professions.

Growing up in public school all you learn is that whenever times were hard people would march and protest and the government would give them what they want- especially in New York there’s nothing but socialist influence, its not that surprising to find that a lot of people at the wall street protest have those ideas. Its not that people just want a handout- but that were always taught that getting a handout was the way to prosperity unless you were born with a silver spoon.

BUT…

I went to the occupy wall street thing(it was kinda fun, free food, dance party)- most of these guys are super young its real easy to talk to them and explain why we’re in the situation we’re in. No reason to paint them with a broad brush because of the “we are the 99% website” or the “official” list of demands or whatever. This is actually a PERFECT time for anyone close to these areas who’s interested in spreading ideas to go out and talk to people. They don’t know whats going on, and don’t know what to do, and the demands are mainly just cries for help instead of real demands. Either anyone interested helps to shift their focus…or its the same as always.

70

I fully understand that government is a big part of the reason why college tuition and (therefore) student debt are so high. However, the government doesn’t (currently) aggressively coerce people into going to college.

Where and how did I paint “them” with a broad brush, exactly?

But in any case, I actually agree with you that it’s a good (if not great) time for people like us to reach out to people. Should the Occupy Wall Street protests spread to my area, that’s probably what I’ll do.

71

That’s certainly true no one was forced into it- but although you and me can understand that just fine - its not the first place I’d start in talking to anyone who has no clue about the market because of the emotional charge behind it.

Not you that painted them with a broad brush- I’m just talking from my general experience looking at people’s opinions of the entire Occupy wallstreet “movement” like in the Mises Daily article . Unless everyone was just referring to the people in those “we are the 99%” pictures.

I wish there were a bit more people in New York who could reach out, it feels like an endless sea of people who say “What!?! Who’s going to pick up the garbage if we don’t have the government?”

72

People are not themselves to blame for the debt they themselves went into? I smell an apologist.

Notice I only said “debt”. People are not to blame for losing their jobs, not getting jobs, their pensions/401k’s/IRA’s getting wiped out, etc. - at least not entirely.

Debts aren’t a problem if you have a job. Getting a job requires education. Education requires debt.

Now, you could point out that government encourages unnecessary use of certification, and thus raises the barrier to entry into the market and so effectively coerces people into college. You could point out that government causes education to be more expensive that it would otherwise be on a free-market. But no, instead you choose to blame the people who are subject to the results of the system, yet have no control over it. The same system that you lot CLAIM to be opposed to.

I sometimes suspect that Mises.org is populated by sufferers of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, because there certainly is a lot of hatred of the weak around this place. I suspect that you are mostly disingenuous in your libertarianism. Austrian Econ is just a tool to be used to rationalise away your inability to feel for others.

73

Nope, you’ve just been reading too much of Bloom’s posts.

74

I think its more that people here expect better from others. There are other options that people could take they just didn’t. The reasons could be endless.

I don’t know how it is outside of New York but here education certainly doesn’t require debt- most of the New York City kids can go to any 4 year CUNY or SUNY, pay a lot less(like $2000-$3000 a semester), and have just as good a chance as getting a job than anyone else with a degree from any expensive university. Financial aid wll also pay a good amount of the tuition if not the whole thing. A friend of mine I grew up with when upstate for college and has a huge amount of debt, it was his choice- the rest of my friends stayed in New York and didn’t go into any debt unless they went to graduate school. He’s no better off than anyone else. He got laid off from his job but instead of complaining he went off to do other types of work to earn cash. The government certainly makes it hard as hell for him to do it- but he knows that going to that particular college was his choice and his debt was his decision. He doesn’t ask for a hand out- just wishes that the government would keep their hands out of his pocket so he can build himself back up.

75

Not all jobs are created equal vis-a-vis “education”. And “education” requires debt? Seriously?

Certification per se does not aggressively coerce anyone to go to college - not “effectively” or otherwise. I don’t know where you got that idea.

Yes, I think education would probably be cheaper under free enterprise. Even more importantly, I think it would definitely be cheaper to start and operate a business. And I would (try to) point these things out to people who are subjects to the results of the system, yet have no control over it.

However, the impression I got from the pictures posted in this thread was that the people in question didn’t think that getting into debt was their own doing. It’s blatantly obvious to me that, regardless of “the system” ruling over us, people are still responsible for their own actions. No one took those actions but them. Why is this so hard for people like you to understand? Maybe it’s because you simply don’t want to.

Do you really expect to intimidate any of us with this? Regardless, how in the world is maintaining that people are responsible for their actions in any way the same thing as “hating the weak”?

Constitutionality is a matter of semantics (health care)
Entrepreneurship in action
76

Oh John James, you can pretend like you actually care about anything I have to say, but regardless of whatever is up here you’re going to tear down as long as ‘Birthday Pony’ appears next to it. You can pretend like I’ve never explained anti-authoritarian socialism before and like this is really the time that you’re paying attention, but I just don’t believe it, sorry.

Anyway, continue to be confused by someone’s refusal to identify by gender and please continue to tell me how I’m a commie marxist bitch. Its really fun watching how smart you can be some times. Also, be sure to include that you don’t hear an answer in this post. You wouldn’t want a post to go by without reminding everyone that I won’t repeat myself because you decided to forget everything else I’ve said here.

77

Clayton,

That’s amazing…I never heard of that…Thanks for informing me…really…thanks…

It’s as if people here think I don’t know about authoritarian socialism. How would you like it if I started telling you about authoritarian capitalism as if you’d never heard of it and as if it was the only kind of capitalism? I remember doing that when I first came here, and it lead to pages of debate. At this point we should both have a little more respect for each other’s ideas. Otherwise this board is seriously not as respectable as I thought. I knew there were folks I disagreed with here, but I figured they were at least smart folks. It’s starting to look like no one’s read anything outside of the basic LvMI millieu.

78

Indeed. There’s a scene from the movie Man on Fire that has stuck with me ever since I first saw it. Early on in the movie, when Creasy is helping Pita to improve her swimming skills, she says to him (paraphrasing), “Maybe I’m just not good enough.” He replies, “There’s no such thing. There’s trained, and there’s untrained.” The point is that you can be good enough, provided that you put forth the effort. As the Cracked.com article that John James linked to points out, that effort may be quite a lot. Regardless, the point remains.

I think many people essentially get suckered into believing that they either can’t do something or they have to do something. Believing either one removes the very possibility of choice from their minds. It’s easy to justify (not) doing something if one feels like he has no choice about it.

I took a couple of classes at a nearby community college while I was getting my bachelor’s degree. The classes were World Literature II and Physical Science (think meteorology, geology, and astronomy). What amazed me was that the quality of the teaching at the community college was at least roughly on par with the quality of the teaching I received at the four-year state university.

79

I sometimes suspect that Mises.org is populated by sufferers of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, because there certainly is a lot of hatred of the weak around this place. I suspect that you are mostly disingenuous in your libertarianism. Austrian Econ is just a tool to be used to rationalise away your inability to feel for others.

That’s the way it works for everybody. Conservatives are easily morally disgusted and generally afraid, hence conservatism appeals to them. Liberals are more emotional thinkers, hence they become liberals. Libertarians aren’t amoral, they just feel less emotionally attached, so it’s a different expression of the same moral emotions that mostly everybody else has.

You think a state socialist (I had to make the distinction) tries to justify his violent expropriation of private property in order to make himself feel better about stealing resources? Of course. “John Rawls and Ronald Dworkin and Paul Krugman are the shit and if my mind weren’t already fallow for accepting the forced sharing of resources to satisfy my evolutionary communist emotions, they would totally convince me.”

This whole thing about state vs. voluntary socialism is a misnomer anyway. If voluntary socialism occurs, it is under the umbrella of a free society and private property. In order to surrender your right to your property to some faceless collective or engage in some “workplace democracy”, one will exercise freedom of choice over their labor and their property and will be able to freely exit the arrangement at any time. That’s why freedom doesn’t necessitate a large-scale capitalist society nor does it inhibit voluntary socialism. If voluntary socialism wins out, so be it; that will be evidence that it is more efficient. We just don’t think it will happen. These people at these protests though want people’s shit, they are not “live and let live.”

80

Education requires debt.

Nah.