I still can't reconcile anarchism with people's apparent tendency towards collectivism...HELP!

Economics Political Theory
21

Juan, my friend, you have gotten very far away from my original argument, from which you took an isolated quote out of context, called me a liar, without any proof that I was either presenting incorrect information, nor that I did so deliberately. You also called me another very nasty name that started with a “C”. But I can get over that.

Quickly, Greek “democracy” had little to do with actual “democracy” as we might term it; you should be well aware of this.

My claim (for which you called me a liar) was that the French Revolution had its philosophical roots in collectivism. People have been ill treated throughout history, but it’s my assertion that they arose in a similar situation to what they had always been in, because something was different. It is my assertion that this new triumvirate, “Liberte, Fraternite, Equalite” – the democratic ideal --coupled by a new goddess called “Reason” usurped a belief in God. The French Revolution was, to my knowledge, the first episode where populist collectivism was a force unto itself, to be reckoned with in the affairs of nations.

It’s also my assertion that the original question, which you seem to ignore, is mainly a recent phenomenon; a new symptom of God-separation anxiety. All kinds of evil was done prior to this, in the name of religious experience. See the Inquisition, the Crusades, and all manner of holy wars from the Roman persecution of Christians back throughout history. What is the first Greek text ever written? The Illiad – a story of yet another dumbass war waged for religious experience.

Why do suicide bombers blow themselves up? That’s more the medieval anxiety. Why do servicemen declare their willingness to “die for their country”? That’s serving the gods, “homeland” and “democracy”. Both are experienced religiously.

What’s the recipe for avoiding collectivism? I think it’s the same as the recipe for avoiding bloody ugly religious wars. There’s an easier way to finding God, and it starts with reading the Bible and ends simply in belief. I don’t think you can truly have a truly free and libertarian society without God. He won’t allow a society to stand long without Him, and that is what the Tower of Babel story is meant to illustrate. I think all you need to see further illustrations are to turn on the television and watch what passes for journalism.

22

Most of the people here view themselves as helpless victims. They do not believe that the state can ever be defeated and they are powerless by definition to resist. Also, they do not want to acknowledge that government is not some self-creating entity but rather is created by people and as long as those people view it as superior to an alternative they will choose government.

23

Since when?

24

Remember: Max is the only person ever to do anything to “forward the cause of liberty”. No one else in history has ever done anything. He’s the only one.

25

Boetie

26

Great stuff, thanks!

27

I’d like to take a shot at this, if I may.

I never took no biology, so correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it, you got your reptile brain with more fundamental instincts, then there’s the mammal(limbic system, I think) with emotions & basic real time reasoning, then the awsome noecortex with the gifts of higher (multi-dimensional) reasoning & math, etc.

We seem to overlook the power of the basic instincts, like sex and survival of the individual and the species. The act of following seems to be one of those instincts and about as powerfull. I’m thinking it’s far more complex than that, though. A duckling seems to committ to movement alone, but will choose to follow the object of preffered size. The spider displayes some sort of geometry and math abilities in webs. Surely we’re capable of containing hardwired geometric patterns of, say, a standard organizational chart. There could even be more than one, a “rebublic” version, a “benevolent dictator” version.

Whatever our procliveties, we (most of us) cede authority to the social structure. Crazy, I know, but this drive is so strong, as to overide any real logic or reason. Morality is a human capability, in the animal world (which we a product of) force rules.

Untill we accept that voting is animal behavior, & finally restrict these instincts of authoritative social structures to the family dinner table (where it seems to work), We’ll get the same o’ same o’.

28

Not necessarily. Suicide, properly understood, is the act of ending the game, when all other options are removed (real or perceived).

It’s a western myth that suicide bombers blow themselves up so they can visit God or get a bunch virgins.

29

I did say most, not all and I have seen no evidence contrary to my statement. Most of the discussions regarding government here center on the individual being a victim unable to resist and discuss the topic as if the government is some independent entity unrelated in any form to the people it governs.

30

The cost of rebellion is higher than the cost of being chained. So that why people don’t rebel against the state. And most people are brainwashed into believing that the state is necessary for freedom and prosperity.

So all we have to figure out which action that is least-costy but help us undermine the state so other actions become more feasiable and availiable.

31

That is only true for someone who thinks only in the short-term; rebellion would be a long-term ideal over being chained, if one is liberty-minded.