Is there a role for government?

[freeradical]

So the concept of Libertarian anarchy came up in another discussion and I just wanted to pursue the subject some more in a dedicated post. My goal is to get an idea of the ideas on the role of goverment in this community. I will start by setting forth my belifs about the subject and then see where it goes.

1. There is a role for government and that role is to protect property rights. This requires the use of force against individuals within the society as well as against enemies from outside. This is beneficial to the governed because it is far more efficient than a state of anarchy where every individual must use up resources protecting their property from every other member.

2. The government should engage in no activity which is not directly related to the purpose stated above.

3. The government is formed and perpetuated only with the concent of the governed (complacency being considered a form of consent).

4. Once created it is imperative that the government be constrained by the governed, or the “sovereign” in the language of Rousseau, in order to prevent the government from attaining enough strength to overpower the entire public (rather than just an individual or a small group of individuals). If the governed fail to do this the government will become a dictatorship which may be worse than anarchy.

[liberty_student]

@freeradical

My goal is to get an idea of the ideas on the role of goverment in this community.

This community doesn’t have homogenous ideas. It’s hard to get two libertarians to agree on anything.

I disagree with 1, so therefore I have to disagree with 2, 3 and 4.

@freeradical

If the governed fail to do this the government will become a dictatorship which may be worse than anarchy.

All governments are authoritarian, whether they do it in a republican or dictatorial manner.

Government by design is a tyranny. Anarchy is an improvement on tyranny.

[Laughing_Man]

What would stop 2, 3, 4 from happening?

[Stranger]

The role of government is to govern the state. It has no meaning or purpose outside that role.

[I_Ryan]

@freeradical

1. There is a role for government and that role is to protect property rights. This requires the use of force against individuals within the society as well as against enemies from outside. This is beneficial to the governed because it is far more efficient than a state of anarchy where every individual must use up resources protecting their property from every other member.

If a state provided protection, the same resources would be used. A state does not create resources out of nowhere. The state must get the resources from the people (the same resources that the people would use if the state was not there).

[Laughing_Man]

@Stranger

The role of government is to govern the state. It has no meaning or purpose outside that role.

What do you mean by this?

[Stranger]

@Laughing Man

@Stranger

The role of government is to govern the state. It has no meaning or purpose outside that role.

What do you mean by this?

That this is the traditional definition of government.

[Laughing_Man]

@Stranger

That this is the traditional definition of government.

What would you define as ‘the state’ in that sentence?

[Sage]

@freeradical

1. There is a role for government and that role is to protect property rights. … This is beneficial to the governed because it is far more efficient than a state of anarchy where every individual must use up resources protecting their property from every other member.

The problem is that government must necessarily violate property rights, e.g. in taxing and violently seizing a compulsory monopoly on the production of security. Market anarchism argues that the benefits of free competition (maximized service and minimized price) also apply to the production of security. Take a look through the sources in this thread.

Regarding your second point, shoes are also produced on the market. Does everyone make their own shoes? No. Likewise, there would be a division of labor and specialization in the production of security.

@freeradical

3. The government is formed and perpetuated only with the concent of the governed (complacency being considered a form of consent).

As I argued in this post, very few people, if any, have actually consented to the government. And complacency simply cannot be considered consent. You can figure out the reductiones yourself.

@freeradical

4. Once created it is imperative that the government be constrained by the governed

As Hoppe argues, any agency that has the power to tax and legislate has incentives to grow:

“once there is no longer free entry into the business of the production of protection and adjudication, the price of protection and justice will rise and their quality will fall. Rather than being a protector and judge, a compulsory monopolist will become a protection racketeer — the destroyer and invader of the people and property that he is supposed to protect, a warmonger, and an imperialist.”

For a good introduction to market anarchism, I recommend these lectures: Libertarian Anarchism: Responses to Ten Objections by Roderick Long, and Self-Governance by Pete Leeson.

[Stranger]

@Laughing Man

@Stranger

That this is the traditional definition of government.

What would you define as ‘the state’ in that sentence?

The permanent bureaucracy that executes the orders of government. Ministries, police, army, diplomats, etc.

[Laughing_Man]

@Stranger

The permanent bureaucracy that executes the orders of government. Ministries, police, army, diplomats, etc.

So the role of government is to govern itself?

[Stranger]

@Laughing Man

So the role of government is to govern itself?

The role of government is to govern the state. I’ve already said that.

Governments come and go, with different constitutions and different powers. The state, that is permanent.

[Juan]

The state is the actuality of the ethical Idea. It is ethical mind qua the substantial will manifest and revealed to itself, knowing and thinking itself, accomplishing what it knows and in so far as it knows it.

I thought I would throw some more nonsense in.

[Juan]

Oh, and this

The state is absolutely rational inasmuch as it is the actuality of the substantial will which it possesses in the particular self-consciousness once that consciousness has been raised to consciousness of its universality.

[Laughing_Man]

@Stranger

The role of government is to govern the state. I’ve already said that.

Governments come and go, with different constitutions and different powers. The state, that is permanent.

But you just defined the state as the institutions of government.

“The permanent bureaucracy that executes the orders of government. Ministries, police, army, diplomats, etc.”

Ministries, bureaucrats, army, police, dipolmats, these ARE the government or at the very least representatives of it.

[Stranger]

@Laughing Man

Ministries, bureaucrats, army, police, dipolmats, these ARE the government or at the very least representatives of it.

They are not the representatives of government. The government could be destroyed tomorrow and the state would carry on its business as usual. It would continue to collect the taxes it is owed and to distribute them to the many different organizations as they are owed. It would continue to fight “criminals”. This would go on until some of the more powerful groups in the country could form another government with the authority to command the state.

Just take a look at the recent history of Belgium. There is practically never any functional government in place. The state is stable and continues to function nevertheless.

[Sage]

@Juan

Oh, and this

The state is absolutely rational inasmuch as it is the actuality of the substantial will which it possesses in the particular self-consciousness once that consciousness has been raised to consciousness of its universality.

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[Laughing_Man]

@Stranger

They are not the representatives of government. The government could be destroyed tomorrow and the state would carry on its business as usual.

That makes no sense. The police, army, dipolmats, bureaucrats and ministries are in existence because of the government. They are arms of the government, so if the government were to be destroyed, they would have no legitimate power.

@Stranger

It would continue to collect the taxes it is owed and to distribute them to the many different organizations as they are owed.

How would it collect taxes without being government?

[Sage]

Stranger, can you give an explicit definition of “state” and “government”?

[Laughing_Man]

@Sage

Stranger, can you give an explicit definition of “state” and “government”?

So far his definition of ‘State’ is:

‘The permanent bureaucracy that executes the orders of government. Ministries, police, army, diplomats, etc.’

‘Government’ definition is unknown.