Job Hunting anyone?

[liberty_student]

@Southern

But I dont see how you can say the state uses you and I for non aggressive things but not for aggressive things.

I’ve argued what you are trying to argue. The problem is, you’re saying the state can make me guilty of something by association.

@Southern

It seems like you have said it is okay if the state takes money from you and pays other people to do immoral things but you draw the line when they try to force you to do something immoral directly.

That is exactly what I am saying. Paying taxes is not the same as murdering.

@Southern

Granted, one worse than the other but both complicit none the less.

Again, I have argued the same thing you are trying to argue. But it isn’t reflective of individualism. You might as well make the case that I slaughtered (or condone slaughtering) the North American Indians because I benefit off of land that only they populated at one time.

@Southern

I think the opposite would be true. War is impossible without money. Unless we create the “new libertarian man” there will always be those who are willing to kill for money.

There will always be money. The question is, what will men use it for? The incentives to commit large scale armed aggression, to channel funding into the creation of WMDs like nukes, are something states do. Not something private individuals do, unless we watch too many spy fantasy movies with sinister evil cabals headed by bald rich guys with pet shaved cats.

[liberty_student]

@Southern

(Just trying to lighten the mood a little)

I’m cool. I wish someone hadn’t dredged this up again, because the conversation always gets heated.

I understand where you are coming from. Been there. Maybe still there. It is hard to reconcile libertarian ethics with the implications of staying connected to institutions of violence.

[Southern]

@wilderness

@Southern

My point was that we are all part of the system and in one way or another, just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger.

and yet lots of people don’t pull the trigger and don’t want to. meanwhile some people do and you are advocating that they should volunteer to do it as opposed to NOT volunteer.

I have never advocated “pulling the trigger”. I have advocated joining the military in certain instances. It is others who have equated every job in the military with “pulling the trigger”. My contention is that if they are guilty of “pulling the trigger” by being an enabler of those who do it in reality then everyone who supports the military through their taxes is just as guilty. The counter point is that the tax payer is not because he is forced to pay taxes. In other words given the choice to pay his taxes or be fined, jailed, or (if he resists enough) killed. That is the tax payers choice given to him by the state. We as tax payers choose our nice comfortable lives knowing that we support an injust war where people are being killed.

@wilderness

@Southern

Then good point was made about the distinction between being an volunteer soldier and an involuntary tax payer. However, we all make the choice to pay and continue to live the good life while another pays in our stead.

I don’t think you understand what volunteer and not-volunteer means.

I never said that taxpayers are given the choice to pay thier taxes voluntarily. I said they are given a choice to pay or suffer the consequences and we choose our own well being. This choice results in bad things happening on the other side of the world.

@wilderness

@Southern

Only those who refuse to make that choice can take the moral high ground, but I cant and most here cant either.

and then you take the next step and advocate that a person ought to volunteer in order to be dictated to pull the trigger on who knows, some stranger somewhere I venture?

I didnt. I have never advocated “pulling the trigger”. You say this because, apparently, you equate all military service with pulling the trigger. Which is not true. Only some are. The other can only be guilty of enabling the killers to do so. And if that the case… read above.

@wilderness

@Southern

The chain of responsibility does not stop just because you declare that the choices given to you are harm someone else or be harmed yourself.

I never encountered that choice. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Unless you or I have refused to pay taxes we are presented that choice everyday of our lives.

@wilderness

@Southern

That is why I say we are all just as guilty of murder if all military are guilty.

that’s impossible human action. for when I don’t pull the trigger and advocate not pulling the trigger - you say I pull the trigger. whatever dude. i know when it’s time to move on. A is not-A. illogical. To trivialize the quality between one thing and another is deceptive to say the least.

I never said that tax payers literaly “pull the trigger”. Only that we share the responsibility for anyone that our government kills.

@wilderness

@Southern

I am not trying to point the finger at everyone and declare hypocracy but I do ask that you be a little more moderate about denouncing others. I see the world as shades of grey, if you dont then we wont see eye to eye.

and yet you finish this post that is it possible that “we won’t see eye to eye”… which it is? we are the same eye or we are not.

I humbly bow out of this dialogue. I don’t think this necessarily deliberates a continuance.

good day sir

Well, I did enjoy the conversation. It seems that I was right that we might not see eye to eye. But I’m ok with that.

[Southern]

And that is really where I stand and where I’m coming from. Reconciling the realities of the world with how I would like to be as well as with all the everyone else that I associate with everyday.

Just to clarify, the points I was making above is not my point of veiw. I was simply trying to illistrate how the guilt by association that is used against those who have state jobs is a slipery slope and that an arguement can be made against each and everyone of us. I was just hoping that it might help some temper the inflametory language a little. In particular when it comes to those who live mind and body in the real world. Not asking anyone to compromise their values, though.

[Democracy_for_Breakf]

@Jon Irenicus

Please, grow up.

I noticed you sometimes have a tendency to talk down to people, I guess I’m no different.

My point was, your everyday person, isn’t exposed to such information as we are. They don’t get as much advice on finding work as we do. If jobs aren’t as accessible, then the majority of the job market will tank since the majority has little motivation to find work if all they know is they are being turned down left and right.

The division of labour is supposed to adapt to everyone, but when there’s such distortions and inequality the majority group loses out. What I will never understand is how this economy will recover when people start producing and reinvesting again, and that is the division of labor’s expectation. If there’s no jobs, and they are really hard to find, how the hell are they supposed to live up to that expectation? Its a double negative. Mind as well just be fucked.

[liberty_student]

@Democracy for Breakfast

If jobs aren’t as accessible, then the majority of the job market will tank since the majority has little motivation to find work if all they know is they are being turned down left and right.

They have lots of motivation to find work. The problem is, the incentives are stacked against them finding work.

@Democracy for Breakfast

The division of labour is supposed to adapt to everyone, but when there’s such distortions and inequality the majority group loses out. What I will never understand is how this economy will recover when people start producing and reinvesting again, and that is the division of labor’s expectation. If there’s no jobs, and they are really hard to find, how the hell are they supposed to live up to that expectation?

The division of labor and the market are stronger in the long run than the state distortions. The economy will recover when the state gets out of the way, allows the malinvestments to be purged (insolvent firms, bad debt liquidated). When that happens, people will start rebuilding the capital base, entrepreneurs will start engaging in risk again, jobs will be created, and the cycle will start again.

I have seen worse times than these. I expect it to get much worse. But right now, it is not that bad. The thing you can worry about, is not the majority, but your own situation. If you need work, find it. Even if it pays little, or isn’t fun. Once you start (anything in life) opportunities open up for you. The trick is always to get your foot in the door, or in some cases, your ass off the sofa.