Libertarians are absolutely horrible at influencing people.

[Stranger]

@Ixtellor

As far as I can tell Austrians are only good at pointing out flaws that Keynesians are already aware of and trying to improve upon.

You offer no models empirical based predictions that come as close as Keynesian models.

Want to prove me wrong? After they pass the stimulus bill, make a widley accepted austrian predicition about what GDP or unemployment rates will look like a year from. I guess if enough austrians throw out different numbers, 1 will be correct. But monkeys can pick superbowl winners with the same methodology.

And even if Keynesians and Austrians got in a room and debated, your main rebuttal would be a priori and we don’t use math, cause its based on false assumptions, and something tantamount to an Austrian version of Palastinians saying “You are all zionist propagandists, without the capacity for non-zionist thought” regardless of what empirical evidence demonstrates.

Ixtellor

P.S. Clearly my most aggresive post.

GDP and unemployment rates are meaningless prediction. I’ve yet to see a keynesian model attempt to predict wealth, which is what we all fundamentally care about.

[Stolz25]

@hoffmanjohn

//Yeah, just like abolitionists were arrogant for regarding the possession of slaves as illegitimate…//

who would a slave owner take more seriously?

A) an abolitionist who is arrogant

B)an Abolitionist who is civil.

no before you scream “false Dilema” let me point out that this is indeed the issue you created,and thus it is the issue.

I’m confused as to why the two choices are being considered mutually exclusive. I know plenty of people I’d consider civil but arrogant.

[C.H_Hellstrom]

@hoffmanjohn

Libertarians come off as arrogance when they suggest that tax’s are theft,because they make the issue sound so simple. In reality though the issue of taxation is much more complicated then that.

There is no arrogance in telling the truth, and the truth is that simple - Taxation is evil.

[hoffmanjohn]

It is relavent because you made a hypthetical that can not be proven or disprove,and thus i decided to respond in the same way you did.

who decides what who’s interest are?

[hoffmanjohn]

The Truth does not always persaude someone because people sometimes have an emotional investment in what they bieleve is true.

Furthermore unlike you i think tax’s are justified because we live under a voluntary “social contract”.

[MatthewF]

@hoffmanjohn

Furthermore unlike you i think tax’s are justified because we live under a voluntary “social contract”.

Justify the “social contract.”

[Spideynw]

@MatthewF

@hoffmanjohn

Furthermore unlike you i think tax’s are justified because we live under a voluntary “social contract”.

Justify the “social contract.”

Before he does, he may want to read this: http://mises.org/journals/jls/1_3/1_3_3.pdf

[MatthewF]

That was great. Thanks!

[hoffmanjohn]

I think our social contract is “just” because not only is it ever evolving and voluntary,but it is also highly negiotable. Democracy has not expanded to its full extent in the way i would like it too,but democracy has made great strides in the 20th century,and hopefully this trend will continue through out the united states.

[MatthewF]

I’m not as interested in why you think it is “just” so much as why would it apply to me? Or your mom? Or anyone else for that matter?

There are a lot of things that I consider to be just. I don’t get the making everyone else participate part…

[MatthewF]

And we’re off topic. Maybe we can take this somewhere else…

[hoffmanjohn]

you should probably message me and i wil talk to you about it later.

[C.H_Hellstrom]

@hoffmanjohn

The Truth does not always persaude someone because people sometimes have an emotional investment in what they bieleve is true.

“Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.” -
– Ayn rand

[Jon_Irenicus]

I love that quote by her. ^^

[C.H_Hellstrom]

@Jon Irenicus

I love that quote by her. ^^

[:D]

[Truth_and_Liberty]

It is vital that the “extreme” goal of libertarianism - no State - be held aloft at all times. We should be abolitionists, in every case. This is the only way we can remain truthful, logical and consistent. We should be proud to be anarchists, and ready to beat down any argument in favour of a State.

Having said that, we should emphasise those areas of society where a free market is most conceivable to the general public: talk about free-market education and healthcare, and why government economic interventions are always harmful, and try to keep away from the more complicated issues like private police, courts, armies and roads, except where the person you are talking to has a particular interest in discussing those areas. Both economic and ethical arguments can be effective. I have no problem saying “taxation is stealing” because it is central to the ethical argument against the State.

[Skinner]

@hoffmanjohn

Libertarians come off as arrogance when they suggest that tax’s are theft,because they make the issue sound so simple. In reality though the issue of taxation is much more complicated then that.

Please, explain the more “complicated” aspects of taxation. I am curious how the threat of the use of force to deprive one of property is not a classic definition of theft. If it is not theft, then what is it? (and for that matter, then, what do you define as “theft”?) If you find it to be justifiable theft, then how do you justify it? I see no arrogance in asserting that taxation is theft, just as I see no arrogance in asserting that war is homicide (that is, the intentional deprivation of a person’s life by another person).

Finally, how is it any more arrogant for a libertarian to assert that “taxation is theft” than it is for a Statist to assert “people do not have a right to property they acquired through their own labor because I know how better to utilize that property than they do.” ?

[Stolz25]

@Skinner Layne

Finally, how is it any more arrogant for a libertarian to assert that “taxation is theft” than it is for a Statist to assert “people do not have a right to property they acquired through their own labor because I know how better to utilize that property than they do.” ?

Obviously the latter is far more complicated, thus, less arrogant.