Monogamy unnatural for our sexy species

Whatever the origin of guilt and shame regarding sexual desires, PU tries to free practitioners from such troubling inhibitions. “Alpha males” generally have the confidence to bend these rules. “Beta males” tend to be insecure and ashamed about their sexuality, and so they’re more likely to be influenced by cultural imperatives about monogamy and chastity.

That’s the main difference between the two groups, in my opinion, and PU is just a means to catch up with and act on one’s inner desires, regardless of what “society” may think.

I think what is being said is that from an evolutionary perspective, we are trying to examine how mating habits came about and what humans evolved to do. Joe, contraception is also a by-product of evolution from a naturalist view, so there’s no intentionality in evolution. Procreation isn’t the end-all-be-all, but in order to get here, procreation was important to some degree. An uneducated ape from millions of years ago procreates because it feels good and over time evolves traits that are conducive to rearing the offspring (or they probably go hand in hand, I don’t know).

It seems to me that monogamy is a relatively new invention. Not sure why or how it came about, but I guess humans suffer from competing drives to have sex with other people and developing attachments to sole individuals. Religion really pushes an anti-sex agenda for whatever reason, but I have my own unfounded theories about that . It could be similar to governments because it seems the first states were evolutionarily hierarchical as most human social conventions are, but also intertwined with some primitive “divine right of kings”-esque justification (the pharaoh can do what he wants because God wants him there). If religion initially pushed monogamy, our current situation could be a “secular monogamy” just like our States are mostly today secular.

Traits evolve randomly from mutation. The ones that can roll over a generation are the good enoughs. Despite that, specimens of any sort can continually occur. There need be only enough “good enoughs” in the litter to sustain the population. The population grows though a few percent are homosexuals, serial killers and other sorts that don’t have kids that live to have their own kids.

<quote_user=“Consultant”>AJ, what did you discover about relationships?

Basically that everything I’d ever learned or heard was wrong, and that there are many types of easy ways to get whatever kind of relationship you want with just about whomever you want, very quickly (hours or minutes), if you’re reasonably brave and have some basic knowledge and understanding. I suppose that sounds like a parlor trick of sorts, but it’s a game-changer as far as how one looks at that part of one’s life. Men who understand female desire (and women who understand male desire) have such a tremendous advantage that it’s just, well, gratuitous. Unfortunately, there are still not that many who do, or they understand some parts but have learned other distracting elements that are counterproductive.

It’s kind of like how everyone knows deep in their core that politics is a rotten, dirty business, and if they didn’t know all the other stuff they think they know, they’d be inclined to say, “Let’s ditch this politics thing altogether!” In other words, they’d reach the right answer. But there are too many other things distracting them.

With male-female interactions, both men and women are exposed to absolutely awful “advice” and suggestive content in magazines, movies, sitcoms, and even from friends and family (although way more for men than women). When you realize a few episodes of That 70s Show (random example; nothing against the show) internalized by a young impressionable male is enough to ruin his chances of ever finding and keeping a really compatible, satisfying partner…forever, if they get no better guidance - and most don’t…you can see that this isn’t really a laughing matter. I’ve seen the casualties of this time and time again, all over the place.

The flipside is that, routinely, a few well-chosen words are enough to change people’s lives. I don’t know how many emails I’ve gotten from people a few months after I fired off a quick mail to them where they were asking me how they can get this one girl, saying I literally changed their life. Yeah they never get that one girl, but they always get other better ones. So for me it really underscored how amazingly important education can be.

And in relationships, just like in political thinking, it’s mostly about exploding myths, rather than teaching anything in particular. Most guys just have so many wrongheaded notions about women and about the state. Like John Hasnas says, the argument for anarchy is obvious: just look around. Take off the blinders, cast off the mysticism, and it’s not hard to see the truth.

Which set of myths is more deeply ingrained? Hard to say. In both cases people invest a lot emotionally into their beliefs being right, to the point where they actually start to think of their political orientation (and their philosophy on the opposite sex) as part of their identity. And they always think their view is so unique, but to the anti-statist/seductionist it’s utterly typical and predictable, cut straight out of the usual molds from popular coverage of these topics where they just pick and choose a few meaningless variables (like wedge issues) and think they now have a very special stance on the matter.

One thing though, there are many more pickup artists (and I’m limiting it to actual successful ones) than there are anti-statists, and that was true even before the seduction education boom that started ten years ago. Hopefully that will change with the nascent education boom here at LvMI.

The relationship problems of guys isnt due to lack of knowledge, but lack of imagination. Pretty much every guy subconsciously knows all the bread-and-butter pua methodology(cocky&funny, negs, demonstration of higher value,social proof, perseverence, etc) but they lack the imaginative power to apply that to themselves which is evidenced by the beta/chump/afc behaviour

I see this is turning into a thread about pick-up arts.

nandnor:

The seduction methods you listed, while not ineffective in the right hands, don’t really mean jack if you still have the pernicious myths ingrained in you, just like how all the knowledge of political corruption and the atrocities of war hasn’t helped people see past the state, because the pernicious myth that society would fall apart without the state is never even open for question. It is instead a basic assumption of all political analysis. It’s never whether to make a law, it’s which law to make. It’s never whether to elect, it’s always who to elect. It’s the great man fallacy, the recurring delusion that “this time it will be different.” Just like the fantasy that both males and female entertain, causing unspeakable harm for both, where the soul mate magically appears and everything happens just like in the movies and they live happily ever after (of course, the same end result can be made to happen if you know how). Most people are just as deep in fantasyland on one issue as the other.

Again, in common with both pursuits, it’s not what people don’t know as much as what they think they know that keeps them from seeing the truth. It’s the basic assumptions ingrained deeply in them that they never question. It’s things they never even realized were beliefs they held at all. And it’s things they have emotional investment in, and sometimes even stake major life decisions on.

The young woman who would have become a brilliant entrepreneur of tremendous benefit to society but decides against going into business because “capitalism is evil” has a messed up model of the world; the young man who wastes his life on frivolities and pursuits he has no real passion about in hopes of impressing the ladies, then marries one who makes him miserable, got that way because he had a messed up model of male-female interactions. I also don’t think either of them got that way by accident.

I have read too much PUA in my lifetime. I believe PUA only made me more weird than I was. Although PUA techniques may work, any techniques may work just as good because males and females naturally attract.

I do thank the PUA community for showing me NLP. I haven’t used NLP for ladies, but I have used NLP more like a drug.

“krazy kaju, what explains the widescale adoption of monogamy with the rise of argiculture?”

I am under the impression that this is not an agricultural development. I know of no evidence to support this, personally. In fact, I am under the impression that there is a widely held theory that bipedal locomotion (2 footed, upright walking) was a development of monogamy.

(Something about the man having to carry the food home, and the men who were able to carry their food home the best [the ones who could walk upright the longest] were able to pass on their seed. I don’t remember how 1 man, 1 woman fit into it, but I’m sure you can find it out there.)

Also, Kaju said “male can mate with multiple females within a short timeframe, thereby maximizing his offspring. A female cannot do the same; a female can only spread her genes once every nine months. Thus, from an evolutionary perspective, it is more reasonable for a male to have multiple female lovers,” works in the opposite as well. It is more reasonable for a woman to take 1 man, the most fit she can, and have her children with him.

Our bodies, minds and sexual habits all reflect a highly sexual primate. Research from primatology, anthropology, anatomy and psychology points to the same conclusion: A nonpossessive, gregarious sexuality was the human norm until the rise of agriculture and private property just 10,000 years ago"

Source?

It is related to the size of the testicles in compared to the entire body

Wow, this is an insightful thread. I’m enjoying reading all your posts, AJ’s and Clayton’s in particular.

I agree with the sentiment that the PU community is strongly anti-establishment. A friend of mine went to a David DeAngelo seminar and talked with him off-set later. Turns out he’s a libertarian.

Just from an economic perspective here, doesn’t polygamy actually benefit women more than men? Consider that in our society, women slightly outnumber men. Thus, in monogamy (where the exchange rate of men to women is restricted at 1:1), women must cater to men to avoid the slim chance that their genes will die out. However, if polygamy were practiced by at least a portion of the population, the situation would be reversed, as the responsibility would now fall on the man to make sure that he is more desirable to the woman than the man with one or more partners already.

I never lost hope and the truth has finaly come out

Of course women are the primary beneficiaries of polygamy… so long as you don’t mix polygamy with arranged marriage. :wink: Most people conclude that - absent arrangement - polygamous unions would never happen but that’s downright silly. Biologically speaking, we have always been polygamous (one individual reproducing with more than one other individual) and I think, over generations, humanity is only going to become more polygamous* than it has ever been in the past.

Clayton -

*By “more polygamous”, I mean “more formally acknowledging the reality of polygamy and establishing customary legal precedents regarding non-monogamous families”

When a person gets benefits in forms of goods or services or direct satisfaction from another person, any occurrence of change in the behavior of that second person causes the first person to take some action to prevent such occurrence. What actions will he take depend upon his previous experiences, biological attributes and availability of persons who may be able to provide similar goods or service or direct satisfaction to him. No doubt the essence of human plays a role, but that remains in an abstract sense.

Acquiring more or maintaining satisfaction requires increase or maintaining the current state of availability of the items which provide that very satisfaction. A human prefers more humans to achieve that goal as long as those extra humans do not snatch from him more than what he thinks he himself deserved or required to consume. Procreation is a major way of increasing that helping hands. From this perspective polygamy would be sought after by any human.

Pleasure is a complex phenomenon. Once an activity or method produces desired results, human puts some extra value on that method. With recurring application of that method it will yield “pleasure” or “feel good” in following that method. This is similar to how Ludwig von Mises explains valuation of money, both as an economic good and medium of exchange. So, procreation may have resulted in a pleasurable procedure or practice. When another person is trying to take that pleasure away from you in part or full, you may react in aggresive or other way depending upon previously mentioned factors. From this perspective relative transition of polygamy to monogamy might be the result of increasing association of pleasure or advantage attainment from sexual intercourse. But at the same time one may share that person with other if that gives him pleasure/satisfaction of another kind.

Another possible aspect might be the raising of the infants. If a community of people feels the neccessity or gets the advantage of raising newborns in a communal way without putting restriction of origin of the newborn, they may prefer polygamy or rather may be ignorant of any such polygamy or monogamy ideology. But again, when they will watch the relative differences of newborns due to genetical factors based upon their originating parents and the difference of capability of various individuals to raise children, they may tend to prefer a more biologically and mentally active human and stick with him, creating a monogamous behavior. But, when one person does not find a desired one, he will prefer to keep on finding the one which may result in polygamous behavior.

So, a mixture of polygamy and monogamy is always possible in both scenario. A society or community may seek monogamous behavior or may be ignorant of any such views. The origin of preferring one practice upon other might be found in their economic system and historical experiences on sexual practices. Hence, monogamy may not be considered unnatural for our species, instead it might be advantageous in attaining some goals depending upon the circumstances.

grunch

I’ve gone back and forth on this. Currently, I think monogomy rules. I’m not 100% Christian, but I believe in God/the Great Spirit/the Universe. I think the Bible contains much wisdom—as I’m sure do the holy texts of other religions. Yes, we can lust and cavort with many others. But I think spiritually we profit by avoiding these things. I’ve spent a lot of years being a-spiritual, and life seems much better to me now that I honor the spiritual once again.

What makes monogamy more spiritual (whatever you mean by that)?

What makes monogamy more spiritual (whatever you mean by that)?

My experience is that the act of sex, at its best, is a gateway which connects two souls. I interpret this as a liminal, sacred experience. The Bible warns to ‘guard your heart’. Whether one believes in a Christian God, or not, I think this is sound advice.

would a menage et trois connect three souls?