I’m very fond of Eastern Orthodox thought and culture, but I am still an atheist. It is two completley seperate things to respect and beleive in. Hell, I’m very fond of Mid Eastern and Greek Myth, but I can assure you I have no intent on worshiping Marduk or Zeus anytime soon.
agreed, and, in the public light, I have the right to condemn it and convince people not to engage in that behavior, as it’s wrong, but, I do not have the right to use the power of the State to stop people from engaging in a contractual agreement.
And look what happens when the State gets involved…I loved Ron Paul’s view on this; he doesn’t like the idea of prostitution either, but when the State gets invovled, they actually tempt people, intentionally, to catch them, which, I’d strongly agree with Dr. Paul is just plain wrong.
Ultimately, and this is just my personal belief, but the libertarian philosophy would not exist if it were not for Christ and the Bible…but that’s just me…
In any event, it pains me greatly to see fellow brothers and sisters in Christ resort to using the power of the State to deter bad or immoral behavior; it usually ends up only re-inforcing that bad behavior and creating even more unintended consequences (War on Drugs is a perfect example of this). Worse yet, they don’t consider they have to use coercion to acoomplish these means…and sadly, well, it seems a lot of believers have an over-fascination with the State as well…and seem to put more faith in it than they do their own Lord and Savior, which is dually frigthening.
That was part of the appeal of Ron Paul to me. If Ron Paul was instead a secular atheist I probably wouldnt be as big a fan. We already have plenty of atheist/agnostic libertarian groups, like Reason or Cato. And just look around alot of the libertarian message boards, and I would venture to say near 1/2 are atheists.
It’s already happened. I think this is why I have been able to convert so many Catholics to full ancaps.
Great healthy dicussion.
I think we all can agree that no group of people, or individual, should force another group, or individual, to do anything.
The thing is, agnostics and believers in revealed religion both share the same human reason. Believers in tradition are ordinary mortals, just like skeptics are. You are not suggesting that people who parrot a dogma are more clever than people who question it are you ?
So called religious people think they have a better grasp of the supernatural than ‘atheists’ but that is of course a baseless belief.
Mmmhmmm. And the fact that you wish there to be some limit where there isn’t any speaks volumes.
If there’s one thing you should have realized so far, Giles, it’s that attempting to elevate faith to something other than bare-faced wishing will earn you an intellectual beat-down.
I didn’t see any indication that he wishes there to be limits, at all, he’s merely stating what he believes, that man’s power and ability to reason has an ultimate limit. Heck, even form a secular point of view, I find it odd that someone would disagree with this; everythign in this universe, in one way or another, has its ultimate limit.
But is it warranted? He could very easily argue against you that elevating man’s reason to be limitless is nothing other than “bare-faced wishing”, as well.
Yes, but his point is that non-believers are not as clever as believers - believers (him included) understand the nature of ‘god’ ‘the lord’ or whatever.
Then I suspect you didn’t actually read it.
Which is that he has to delimit reason in order to maintain faith.
No, that’s not what he means.
Yes.
He could, but then neo-nazis argue that the jews are vermin. I don’t believe that nonsense, either. Nonsense multiplied by faith is nonsense doubly so.
Mere demagoguery.
Not in the least. Truth is truth, regardless of how it stings.
Not when one implies that Christianity is like Neo-Nazism, that is an untrue statement that lies in the category of demagoguery for the imply that is absurd.
I implied nothing of the sort. I made a comment about a belief a certain group of people have and how I don’t believe it, either. That you desire to find some implication where there is none shows you just want to feel some bit of offense.
We can never be entirely sure of the nature of the Lord, nor can we be entirely aware of his existance, faith is required for that.
I’d say more than 1/2, but there we go. As for Ron Paul, that’s definately true, and it also applies for the LvMI as a whole. Despite not being Catholic it’s nice to hear of a Libertarian organization mainly comprised of Christians.
No.
And your arrogance leads you to elevate your reason higher than it deserves to be. If you really think your reason allows you to conclude that the Lord does not exist you’re wrong, it has limits, just like a ruler cannot measure the length of the universe.
Do people ever discuss being non-religious and believing in sound economics and freedom?
I’m not religious, and I wouldn’t say I ‘believe in freedom’, but I do try to keep informed on economic theory and history.
Basically, a lot of people believe all sorts of weird things. I think it’s weird when libertarians argue that the non-agression axiom is binding, logically necessary or demonstrated as part of ‘human nature’ (?). I have been around a handful of religious people. Honestly, if they start talking to me about it I’ll argue with them. It’s not like I need their approval - if they don’t want to demonstrate a justification for their ideas then they should be careful to talk to more inert people, I suppose.
Whatever you say, kid. Of course, now you’re going to have to back that. Tall order for you.
I know that you’re emotionally invested in your belief; I get that. Everyone gets it. Just don’t let that investment lead you to write intellectual checks your brain doesn’t have the intellectual currency to back.
Yet reason can show that a square circle doesn’t exist. Your zeal for your belief, while understandable from a certain standpoint, has lead to you believe six impossible things before breakfast. And that, Red Queen, isn’t commendable.
You have a lot going for you, but your overzealous faith isn’t one of them. I suggest you work on that.