Nuclear Disarmament

“Snliii, making the same assertions over again will not make your case.”

None of them are being answered conclusively.

“You’re still trapped in a statist mindset. Besides, if that is all what most businesses wanted to do, you have no right to force them to do otherwise. The fact that you merely bring up the social contract suggests to me you have not even bothered reading Hoppe’s article.”

I’m having trouble putting together a reply to this because it seems plainly obvioius that your simply replacing the American state with a different one. If you follow this logically, how is the result any different than the “fair tax” or a national sales tax?

I read Hoppe’s article, twice. He never once addresses my concerns regarding an agressive state… and every premise and conclusion is preceeded with an intellectual out, similar to the kinds used by proponents of communism (like, ‘since it’s never been fully implemented and little historical reference we must trust…’ or… requiring the public to all be of the same mind-set.)

re social contract… you have the right to expatriate with all of your property… as far as I know, you are not taxed to exit.

Because the article aims at addressing how the industry will be financed, and why the public goods argument is a load of hogwash, In particular, Hoppe briefly offers presumptions against the social contract fallacy. It is a non sequitur to say this involves a ‘state’ of any sort, so I am not sure whence you inferred this. What I did mean to say is that businesses may respond in any way they please provided they do not aggress against innocents. If you want to see him handling aggressive states, see his article in Democracy - the God that Failed, as well as the Tannehills’ arguments regarding the matter in The Market For Liberty.

Hoppe is not engaging in any sort of ‘out’; he is qualifying his responses. It is sheer intellectual arrogance to think the market can accurately and fully be predicted in advance. Hoppe is advancing potential outcomes based on libertarian theory and past experience. I’d be more concerned if he didn’t offer this ‘out’…

I’m agreeing to be robbed by not leaving the country? What kind of logic is that? If your immediate neighbors to you left and right decide that all three of you should contribute money towards a swimming pool, and you don’t want to, should you be forced to move? Think about it.

Demanding that everyone be of the same libertarian mind-set is not qualifying a response, it’s insisting on an impossible scenario. Similar to Len above, to say that businesses wouldn’t act in the interest of profit because they’d believe in anti-statist principles is an absurd contradiction. Following this logically means that businesses, when prevented from freely trading with the enemies of an agressive state, or being forced to sell their goods at a below market level price, means that to compensate for this would have to sell their goods domestically, or to neutral states, at a higher price. Congradulations, but the “free” people of the Americas would be taxed without representation.

But, when I get a chance I’ll check out those articles.

“I’m agreeing to be robbed by not leaving the country?”

Well… yeah.

Will you respond to the rest of the analogy:

Is that a fair scenario?

Prevented by whom? Clients boycotting them? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

Why should I have to leave the country to not be robbed?

Using your logic, I should be able to bring food to your house, and then take as much as I think it is worth, regardless of what you think. You also think it is ok for me to take your money and simply give it to other people and keep some of it for myself. All this, just because your neighbors voted and said it was ok for me to do that or just because I have more “power” then someone else. And according to your logic, If you do not agree with me doing that, it is up to you to leave, not for me to stop my theft.

If you think this is the case, let me know. I will happily come to where you live and see if I can get your neighbors to agree so I can start taking your money from you if you do not leave.

Spidey, this argument sounds familiar, doesn’t it? [;)]

Prevented under the threat of nuclear attack by an enemy state.

I’ll start from the beginning… and try to write really simply.

The now free people of America have completely dissolved the federal and state governments, and the defense of the people is now voluntarily funded.

PDAs are established to fight conventional wars against ‘out of line’ PDAs and aggressive states. All nukes from the former USA are completely disarmed, as advocated by nearly all libertarians on this forum, and from reading the defense myth essay that I read a month or so ago by Hoppe.

Free trade is established by the businesses in the free America with each other, and other countries. Those businesses’ assets are protected by the PDAs.

Businesses have only one moral obligation, and that is to profit and will do anything to sustain themselves.

A state (which by the definition libertarians give it, must always be seeking to forcefully acquisition resources and expand its borders to survive) will make all attempts necessary to acquire nuclear weapons, if they don’t already have them.

In the aggressive state’s conquest, they will seek to cut off trade from other enemy states. They will also seek key resources, such as oil or capital, to fuel their wars.

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Now from this alone, you’ve got to see how vulnerable American businesses are to an aggressive nuclear state…

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At this point…

–A nuclear state can demand that the American businesses stop trading with it’s enemies.

–A nuclear state can demand that the American businesses sell their goods to them at a below market level.

–A nuclear state can demand that American businesses pay some sort of tribute to fund their wars.

Why? Because instead of losing all of their infrastructure, labor, or other assets (like an oil rig for example) in a nuclear attack, a business will have to cave into such threats in order to survive.

Or..

A preemptive nuclear attack by an aggressive state against every PDA means they’ve knocked out most of the defense of the free America. Occupation is totally unnecessary, so armed guerrilla militias are rendered useless.

There is no option for equal retaliation. Saboteurs and F-16s are no match for a nuclear arsenal. Even a missile shield can’t defend against nuclear subs with Triton II (or whatever they’re called) warheads.

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When faced under these circumstances, for a business to still turn a profit, will have to raise their prices to compensate for the tribute, selling their goods at below a market level, or because of the loss of other consumers.

Essentially, this is a sales tax built into the cost of the goods to all of it’s consumers at home and abroad.

This “tax,” built into the price of an essential commodity like energy (electricity from power plants) or oil, filters throughout the entire economy of the Americas… meaning everyone is therefor being taxed by the enemy state.

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But suppose Len was running one of these businesses. Let’s say he was head of an oil company that had refineries, rigs, fields, and a big office building. Len gets a threat from an aggressive nuclear state asking for some sort of tribute and he gives them the bird.

Len is now dead. His refineries are destroyed, he corporate office is destroyed, and half of his employees are dead, not to mention the collateral damage done to others in the vicinity of his office and refineries.

The cost of the state is minuscule in comparison to that of Len, he of course paying the ultimate price, his life.

At this point, do the PDAs retaliate? They have no reason to because they will not be paid for their efforts, unless it is deemed by other businesses to pay to squash the threat overseas. But then, if they attack, they might meet Len’s demise in another round of nuclear attacks. But then, if they wait, they might also be forced to pay tribute. But then, a competitor of Len might be happy because he can raise his prices since there is less competition. But then, his competitor might have made a secret alliance with that enemy state in order to gain a greater share of the market. Who the hell knows.

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Frankly, I think it is absolutely absurd to think there should be no national defense, even if funded through taxes, and furthermore, a ‘defense’ without nuclear weapons is not a ‘defense’. The reason nuclear attacks don’t happen now is because the USA has a fucking ton of them. Nukes are a deterrent. It amazes me that anyone can think they’re not… and infact it hurts the credibility of the Mises Institute to think that complete nuclear disarmament is viable. Don’t you see? The lack of nukes actually causes more death and destruction.

The theory is broken.

The only “broken” theory is yours. To counter assertion with assertion, it is absurd to think there should be “national” defence in the first place. It is pure socialist fiction. It is not defence, it is merely defence of and for government by the people. Let’s say I granted that nukes are indeed the most efficient deterrent out there. Then PDAs will acquire and use them. And to simply insist that one PDA may side with a government, I could likewise insist some or most politicians may be bought off, and turn on their so-called “nation”. When I see a defence socialist actually demonstrate how national defence does not come under the calculation argument, and why the normal considerations against coercive monopolies don’t apply in its case, I might lend them some credibility. Until then, they’re typical socialists. If you’re so bloody concerned about PDAs, then let’s say people pooled their funds together to acquire defensive capabilities of this large-scale sort, rather than relying on PDAs, or formed cooperatively owned firms for large-scale defence. Where is the problem now? Your argument for “national” defence is sunk.

Your argument for that being taxation also fails. The businesses are the ones being compelled to pay, in a way. Their clients are not. They may choose to patronize someone else. Ironically, it is this argument that disposes of the free rider in the case of private defence; businesses will find it in their interest to protect their holdings - their clients will not be getting this for free, they will be paying for it in somewhat higher prices.

Sorry, but your defence of socialism does not cut it.