Ode To No Government At All, Ever Again

[MsPatriot]

There are some situations which undermine the premise of undermining authority by secession, and there are some situations where it’s so open to interpretation, that the followers seem to see that as a cue that Agorism is not urgent, and can be done quietly, inconspiciously and casually.’

Ok, so it’s closer to an issue of overt vs covert than whether it can be done at all? In your description, I agree with all of it right up to the notable bone of contention, so for me at least that just leaves me suspended for the time being and not sure which side I would ultimately land on just yet. I never voted at all ever until the last election, not even in primaries or locally or any other one, mostly due to indifference one way or the other. The one time I did I was met with the not so shocking newsflash it was rigged anyway, which motivated me to then purchase a pretty to the point Tshirt from tshirthell.com that read: “Well, that’s the last time I vote!” and still wear it regularly. I vowed that as long as the elections are rigged my vote is antivote. I briefly got caught up in the ‘hope’ factor with the Obamacraze, I officially endorsed him as my candidate of choice on my site, and even donated $25 to the campaign.

One week later, Obama voted in support of FISA and that was my dealbreaker, I officially withdrew all support. I was glad I did not submit the voter registration form (moved and was just wrapping up my 6 mos in the new place to qualify to register here) which was intended to be Democrat. I was without any party in particular, though I could’ve probably gone Libertarian and gotten away with it based on natural perspective…but I got wind of the Ron Paul Revolution March July 9th for July 12 and found a ray of hope again…even if it would entail going Republican, but Paul apparently went into suspension and it was during this WTF NOW? part that I had the revelation of the obvious.

I won’t be voting - openly acknowledged. I don’t go to rallies and protests. I don’t take the MSM at all seriously, and usually when they promote anything I steer clear of it, and when they start fearmongering, I’ll go investigate and usually do it, try it, etc. if it’s interesting, as personal defiance more than anything. My assets are safely secured from any form of “removal” and the stuff “not nailed down” is of minimal consequence, if they want it and are willing to go to that kinda trouble to get some general appliances, then whatever. Joke’s on them. Other issues that would be considered in defiance of law and order I have done, am doing and/or will do in the future. At the moment I don’t own a gun, but plan to obtain one in the near future. I refuse to register it under any circumstance. I won’t be seeking any permits. I also have no intention of robbing people or using it in some active assault so its mere existence isn’t triggering any sort of crackdown. I don’t do drugs but I know a lot of people who do, and will not turn them in, and if it came up I would obstruct justice to protect their ventures and head it off if possible. I do not support any government agencies. I have, do, and/or would in the future barter or engage in private transactions of goods and services. When possible, or when the opportunity arises, I have engaged in covert civil disobedience just to aggrevate an already unstable agency and cause them to waste time and their money dealing with that than what they’d otherwise be doing screwing someone over.

I am well aware that none of this whatsoever would get rid of a government one way or the other, and while I have no illusions there will be a massive 100% supported final protest by the people to abolish government I do still feel it is possible through both covert and overt means, with smaller numbers to drive it out of business via means based on the real laws of nature - but at this moment I can’t point to something definitive, just looking for a wider pool of thought on possibilities and eventually coming to the right one.

[Brainpolice]

@Maxliberty

@fsk

I wrote an “answers to criticisms of agorism” post. The critcisms I’ve seen trolled here are:

1. Agorism is too risky. You’ll wind up in jail if you try it.
2. Agorists are all talk and no action. (That’s true in my case, but not for other posters here. I plan to change that in the next few years.)
3. Anarchy won’t work. People need a government in order to have a stable society.
4. Agorism is not a proven success. Therefore, I don’t want to consider it.

I’ve concluded that agorism is the only sensible strategy a freedom-loving individual can pursue. If you want to start an agorist trading group, you only need a handful of people to get started. Regrettably, I don’t have any friends who are interested.

Ms. Patriot,

Don’t let the agorists on this site fool you. Agorism is absolutely fantasy. I have repeatedly demonstrated in these forums the complete lack of action of agorists, the complete incoherent nature and incosistent nature of the agorist philosophy. If you want to not comply with government rules and regulations because you want more personal freedom that is fine but you need to adopt the agorist mindset to do that. Agorism is just an excuse for people to pretend that by not paying a few taxes that they are engaged in a great venture to bring down the state.

Just as a note, the guy FSK has a blog that if you type in the word Agorism comes up about 5th in Google and he doesn’t know any agorists. What does that tell you? Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.

Most agorists are opposed to the state but the philosophy has no chance of achieving its goals and many agorists openly admit it maky take many generations for it to have any effect. So forget about freedom in your lifetime with the agorist strategy. Agorists as people opposed to the state, ok, as a philosphy to remove the state, it’s ridiculous.

On an unrelated note, to FSK…I see that you are a programmer in one of your blogs…would you be interested in a real world freedom project such as developing an online gold currency platform?

Oh cut the BS already. You’ve done no such thing. You don’t even have an argument, you just make assertions and then don’t back them up. You’ve straw manned agorism and made a bunch of personal accusations about people who you don’t know that you cannot back up. You are in no position of authority as to what other people who you don’t know do in their personal lives. You also make an appeal to the status quo, by pointing to the nonexistance of something now as an argument against it. Arguements you made such as “Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.” could equally be fallaciously applied if you replace the word “agorism” with “libertarianism”. Is libertarianism therefore illegitimate or wrong? It hasn’t had any impact for 200 years. If you expect some kind of overnight transition to a free society, a meaningful get liberty quick scheme, it is you who is engaging in an absolute fantasy. Revolution is a process, not waking up one day and magically obtaining one’s ultimate goal.

You speak from a position of both ignorance and arrogance. Have a nice day, you pretentious prick.

[Brainpolice]

@liberty student

@fsk

Even though Maxliberty and liberty student are trolling the anti-agorist foolish position, there are other people besides me intelligently defending agorism. I interpret this as a sign of progress. A year ago, when I was posting on the Ron Paul forum, the trolls merely ignored agorism instead of attacking it.

Oh gimme a break. I am actually engaged in counter-economic activity, you are not. You’re a “theoretical agorist”. Your prose to action ratio on the topic is off the charts, and then you want to call my position foolish, without even debating it?

No, you guys truly are the anti-agorist trolls of this forum. You quite blatantly go out of your way to instigate agorists and are constantly psycho-analizing them or making personal accusations about their characters. You don’t resort to anything remotely resembling a direct response to what the agorists are saying, you always shift to personalization, taking cheap shots at people.

[Brainpolice]

Yes, you can do nothing and the state will fall down. In fact, agorism is so flexible, you can retreat to the state systems whenever you need to. There is no permanent withdrawal or active resistance. It’s all passive, secret, hidden, casual.

How many times do I have to clarify to you that agorism /= “doing nothng”? This reoccuring ignorance is stunning.

[liberty_student]

@Brainpolice

Arguements you made such as “Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.” could equally be fallaciously applied if you replace the word “agorism” with “libertarianism”. Is libertarianism therefore illegitimate or wrong? It hasn’t had any impact for 200 years.

I think libertianism is bigger than socialism online. I think that Lew Rockwell, Cato and Mises are successful libertarian institutions, and while it may be minarchy, Ron Paul had a very succesful libertarian-esque campaign, and now has 75,000 people signed up to follow him over a cliff.

I wouldn’t say libertarianism hasn’t done anything. On the contrary, because people are not working individually, secretly or not at all, things are in fact getting done.

[Nitroadict]

@liberty student

@Nitroadict

Being that FSK obviously has been an Agorist for a while, I think the logic used to invalidate Agorism by using him as an example is perfectly sound.

It’s good you deleted the rest of your post, it was as misguided as what I have just quoted.

FSK is an “expert” on Agorism, but he doesn’t practice it. He’ll tell you to practice it, tell you it’s profitable etc. But he doesn’t do it.

For whatever his reasons, I don’t blame him for having reasons. But at the same time, it seems a little (a lot) unethical to advise other people to act counter-economically (see: risk) when that person has no experience with the risks or pitfalls themselves.

It would be no different than getting stock advice from a guy who manages an online play money portfolio and won’t tell you how he’s doing with it.

But I do resent being called a fool and a troll, when the person calling me that, has less experience about the subject matter, and is less willing to have a serious conversation about it, than I am.

I deleted it because it just didn’t work. I mean, I’ve never even seen all of Patton, and yet I went and “tried” quoting it anyway? [:S]

I can’t really argue with you concerning how it could be unethical, but I think the debate itself implies a “buyer beware”, more or less.

I do not recall FSK saying he was an expert of Agorism, however.

I did think the fool & troll comment was inaccurate, however; it’s too much of a forum tradition (conceptually, not literally, although it certaintly occurs here as well) to label another a troll due to disagreements.

[liberty_student]

@Brainpolice

How many times do I have to clarify to you that agorism /= “doing nothng”? This reoccuring ignorance is stunning.

1 Billion times. But you could save yourself some trouble by developing a sense of sarcasm.

[liberty_student]

@Brainpolice

No, you guys truly are the anti-agorist trolls of this forum.

No, you are. NO, YOU ARE! Are not! Are so!

@Brainpolice

You quite blatantly go out of your way to instigate agorists and are constantly psycho-analizing them or making personal accusations about their characters.

Trust me, if I psycho analize you, you won’t be able to sit on a hard chair for a week, brain police or no brain police. That said, if you stopped being loud, but dodging when confronted with direct questions, you probably could have shut us up by now. Likewise for FSK. Posting a numbered list of strawmen and calling people trolls is not the way to win an argument.

@Brainpolice

You don’t resort to anything remotely resembling a direct response to what the agorists are saying, you always shift to personalization, taking cheap shots at people.

Do you need a hug or something?

[Nitroadict]

@liberty student

@Brainpolice

How many times do I have to clarify to you that agorism /= “doing nothng”? This reoccuring ignorance is stunning.

1 Billion times. But you could save yourself some trouble by developing a sense of sarcasm.

I think LS is trying to differentiate theorists of Agorism and practitioners of Agorism, not equating Agorism itself with doing nothing.

[Brainpolice]

@liberty student

@Brainpolice

Arguements you made such as “Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.” could equally be fallaciously applied if you replace the word “agorism” with “libertarianism”. Is libertarianism therefore illegitimate or wrong? It hasn’t had any impact for 200 years.

I think libertianism is bigger than socialism online. I think that Lew Rockwell, Cato and Mises are successful libertarian institutions, and while it may be minarchy, Ron Paul had a very succesful libertarian-esque campaign, and now has 75,000 people signed up to follow him over a cliff.

I wouldn’t say libertarianism hasn’t done anything. On the contrary, because people are not working individually, secretly or not at all, things are in fact getting done.

Strange, I observe that the government continues to grow anyways. I haven’t seen any reductions in political power occur. Where’s this present “success” in terms of the actual goals? Nowhere. I never said that libertarianism hasn’t done anything, I’m saying that it hasn’t accomplished any of its goals through the means that it has used over the past few centuries. The effect has been the exact opposite.

[liberty_student]

@Brainpolice

Strange, I observe that the government continues to grow anyways. I haven’t seen any reductions in political power occur. Where’s this present “success” in terms of the actual goals? Nowhere. I never said that libertarianism hasn’t done anything, I’m saying that it hasn’t accomplished any of its goals through the means that it has used over the past few centuries. The effect has been the exact opposite.

Have you ever operated a group or business in meatspace?

First you have to come up with the plan. Then the capital. Then the location. You need to design a logo, hire staff, bring in product, get a bank account, all sorts of things. Like loading bullets into a gun before the battle begins.

The difference today vs. the past is, there was no collaborative infrastructure to outreach to the rank and file citizen. Now there is. Now, libertarians are no longer constrained by capital costs or being marginalized within high profile institutions, but can invest as much human capital as they want into growth and ideological advancement because the internet is nearly free to operate within.

And it is happening. You seem incredibly jaded about the whole thing. People are waking up, they are taking an interest in better understanding liberty, and feeling distrust towards their governments. I’m not talking about disenfranchised youths. I’m talking about early late 30s, early 40s working parents. The people who make the economy go and support the state the most.

Cheer up.

[MsPatriot]

clears throat

Ohhkay. Well I certainly didn’t intend a flame war to break out! Sorry if my questions were hot buttons, didn’t know. But my questions are still legitimate, this forum is the first I’ve ever heard of or seen of the term agorism and was genuinely interested in what that entails and where it may, and may not be, helpful to my own specific interest of seeking actual measures to dismantle any and all governments from the USA. I am less interested in the ways and means of solving the problems we’ve relied on government to handle, like road building and helping the disabled because people will organize and get things accomplished the same way people appeared from all over the country when 9-11 happened or for any of the miscellaneous hurricanes, and banded together to help, jump in and repair out of genuine compassion and regard for society at all - whereas the government, both levels, sat on its ass and ignored or refused, or even outright sabotaged any real attempt at assistance, whether due to them being sociopathic dirtbags or due to ineptitude the result is the same: unfit to do anything at all and serves no useful function, and should be abolished…more interested in various possible solutions or a mix of them.

I apologize if I got you guys all jacked up over your diverse opinions here, it wasn’t my intent.

[majevska]

Liberty Student,

What is your exact stance on agorism? You say that you practice counter-economics yourself and wish to economically secede as much as possible, so what is your exact beef with agorism? Is it that you feel it’s naive to think agorism is the only strategy and that’s what it seems some on this forum think? Is it because you think they are too “extreme” (rejecting Ron Paul etc.). I don’t think I understand where you’re coming from.

You said you practice counter economics and are upset at agorists not revealing their practices online, so what is it that you do in counter-economics?

Also, I would hypothesize that the reason you think people in their “early late 30s, early 40s,” are waking up is that you appear to be around that age (judging from what you’ve implied in your posts) and thus your anecdotal sample is severely biased.

[Maxliberty]

@Brainpolice

@Maxliberty

@fsk

I wrote an “answers to criticisms of agorism” post. The critcisms I’ve seen trolled here are:

1. Agorism is too risky. You’ll wind up in jail if you try it.
2. Agorists are all talk and no action. (That’s true in my case, but not for other posters here. I plan to change that in the next few years.)
3. Anarchy won’t work. People need a government in order to have a stable society.
4. Agorism is not a proven success. Therefore, I don’t want to consider it.

I’ve concluded that agorism is the only sensible strategy a freedom-loving individual can pursue. If you want to start an agorist trading group, you only need a handful of people to get started. Regrettably, I don’t have any friends who are interested.

Ms. Patriot,

Don’t let the agorists on this site fool you. Agorism is absolutely fantasy. I have repeatedly demonstrated in these forums the complete lack of action of agorists, the complete incoherent nature and incosistent nature of the agorist philosophy. If you want to not comply with government rules and regulations because you want more personal freedom that is fine but you need to adopt the agorist mindset to do that. Agorism is just an excuse for people to pretend that by not paying a few taxes that they are engaged in a great venture to bring down the state.

Just as a note, the guy FSK has a blog that if you type in the word Agorism comes up about 5th in Google and he doesn’t know any agorists. What does that tell you? Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.

Most agorists are opposed to the state but the philosophy has no chance of achieving its goals and many agorists openly admit it maky take many generations for it to have any effect. So forget about freedom in your lifetime with the agorist strategy. Agorists as people opposed to the state, ok, as a philosphy to remove the state, it’s ridiculous.

On an unrelated note, to FSK…I see that you are a programmer in one of your blogs…would you be interested in a real world freedom project such as developing an online gold currency platform?

Oh cut the BS already. You’ve done no such thing. You don’t even have an argument, you just make assertions and then don’t back them up. You’ve straw manned agorism and made a bunch of personal accusations about people who you don’t know that you cannot back up. You are in no position of authority as to what other people who you don’t know do in their personal lives. You also make an appeal to the status quo, by pointing to the nonexistance of something now as an argument against it. Arguements you made such as “Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.” could equally be fallaciously applied if you replace the word “agorism” with “libertarianism”. Is libertarianism therefore illegitimate or wrong? It hasn’t had any impact for 200 years. If you expect some kind of overnight transition to a free society, a meaningful get liberty quick scheme, it is you who is engaging in an absolute fantasy. Revolution is a process, not waking up one day and magically obtaining one’s ultimate goal.

You speak from a position of both ignorance and arrogance. Have a nice day, you pretentious ***.

I have consistently challenged any and all agorists to a debate on the implementation of agorism philosophy and strategy. You have been challenged by Liberty Student as well to a debate on the subject. You and all of your agorist colleagues have consistently refused to answer basic questions about agorism and how the strategy is supposed to work. I understand why, because agorism is not logically consistent.

I started another thread on this very topic in order to have a discussion about agorism and still no agorist would answer questions. Again, I cahllenge you and all agorists to an open discussion of the implementation of agorism. I wont hold my breath for any agorist to take up the challenge.

As far as substituting libertarian for agorist in judging effectiveness, yeah they both are not working. That is why it is time to try something else.

[Maxliberty]

@Brainpolice

@liberty student

@Brainpolice

Arguements you made such as “Agorism has been around 30 years and no one can point to one place in the world where it has had any impact.” could equally be fallaciously applied if you replace the word “agorism” with “libertarianism”. Is libertarianism therefore illegitimate or wrong? It hasn’t had any impact for 200 years.

I think libertianism is bigger than socialism online. I think that Lew Rockwell, Cato and Mises are successful libertarian institutions, and while it may be minarchy, Ron Paul had a very succesful libertarian-esque campaign, and now has 75,000 people signed up to follow him over a cliff.

I wouldn’t say libertarianism hasn’t done anything. On the contrary, because people are not working individually, secretly or not at all, things are in fact getting done.

Strange, I observe that the government continues to grow anyways. I haven’t seen any reductions in political power occur. Where’s this present “success” in terms of the actual goals? Nowhere. I never said that libertarianism hasn’t done anything, I’m saying that it hasn’t accomplished any of its goals through the means that it has used over the past few centuries. The effect has been the exact opposite.

This is a valid observation. The current strategies for creating a free society are not working. This includes agorism and the current libertarian strategy which is basically educate people and vote for libertarians.

[Maxliberty]

@fsk

Considering that E-Gold already failed, I don’t see the point in pursuing that. What’s wrong with trading with actual physical gold? I don’t see the advantage of an E-Gold system compared to using physical gold.

The advantage is that the world is a really big place and moving actual gold around everywhere is expensive.

@fsk

If you try to manage an E-Gold system as a legal on-the-books business, you’ll be shut down by State violence.

LMAO, I ask an agorist to to help with a real world counter-economy project and he says yeah but the state will shut us down…I can’t stop laughing.

@fsk

Even though Maxliberty and liberty student are trolling the anti-agorist foolish position, there are other people besides me intelligently defending agorism.

Where are the people defending agorism, I have not seen a single person be willing to answer simple questions about the subject.

@fsk

If I was victim in a tax evasion trial, and you were on my jury, would you vote to acquit me?

I sincerely doubt you will ever be on trial for tax evasion. You have to evade taxes in order for that to happen.

[liberty_student]

My exact stance is, agorism is worth doing, if you strongly disagree with the state, and are willing to do something about it.

My exact beef is with agorism as “the only way”. It is not the only way, it still remains to be seen if it is “a way”. It’s funny to see it repackaged, when the black/grey market as a means of avoiding state regulation and taxation have been going on since the beginning of time. The difference with agorism, is that it seems to be geared around the notion of creating a mass movement to undermine the state and pursue liberty. In this regard, I don’t see how a mass movement will be generated by a passive promotion and recruitment strategy.

I think people take potshots at Ron Paul because it takes the heat off of their own inactivity. Paul isn’t perfect, but he has done more to promote sound money and a philosophy of liberty than any other politician in the last what, 60 years? I’ll never understand why people say that he “hurts the cause” or “hasn’t accomplished anything”.

Yes, I do not think you know where I am coming from.

I’m not trying to out anyone, but for the sake of saying “yes, i engage in counter-economics”. I don’t want to know what people’s practices are, it’s not difficult figuring out how to secede, the trick is actually doing it. So are people just talking about it, or are they doing it?

Your hypothesis is flawed. If I had any kind of disqualifying bias, it would be that I am Canadian, and thus Americans might reject my anecdotal evidence based on environmental and systemic conditions. But people are indeed waking up.

[fsk]

My primary reason for being a theoretical agorist and not a practical agorist is that I don’t know any suitable trading partners. It’s hard when you don’t have any interpersonal freedom. All the people I currently hang out with are strongly opposed to the risks of agorism.

Also, I earn a decent salary in my job as a slave software engineer. I’d need an agorist business opportunity that is just as profitable, for it to be worth considering full-time.

Right now, raising awareness is more important than putting theory into practice.

It’s good to see that there are people besides me defending agorism. That is progress compared to a year ago. It’s also nice to see trolls attacking agorism. That didn’t occur a year ago.

Once you realize “government is evil!”, then it merely is a question of tactics. The Federal Reserve and income tax are really a massive enslavement system. The true beneficiaries of government are a small handful of people, and the rest of us are cattle.

I have seen no strategy for defeating the bad guys that is more promising than agorism. If agorism has a nonzero chance of success and other strategies have zero chance of success, then I should investigate agorism more.

What tactics are best for reducing the evil power of government? Agorism is a strategy of individual secession. However, you can’t do it alone. You need a group of people willing to share the profits and risks.

What other strategies are there? The Libertarian party has been a proven failure for a long time. The current Libertarian Presidential candiate (Bob Barr) is accused of being a huge statist. Make a self-sufficient community in a remote area (Liberty Colony)? That didn’t work for the Montana Freemen or Branch Davidians. An armed self-sufficient community is like wearing a huge bullseye.

If you practice agorism, even part-time, you’re increasing your personal freedom even if you don’t defeat the State. If enough people practice agorism, that will be the end of the State. How many active participants are needed? 1%? 3%? 10%? 50%? It isn’t clear.

Some people are in agreement over “The State is evil!”, but are in strong disagreement over what tactics are best.

In order to be a full agorist, you need all of the following:

1. A sound monetary system, and a conventient way to trade between fiat paper and gold/silver.

2. A safe place to store your savings and profits. (If you store gold in your residence, you risk theft by common criminals and you risk theft by criminals wearing badges and uniforms.)

3. Food manufacturing (off-the-books farming and cooking)

4. Free market health care (doctors without a State license)

5. Appliance manufacturing and repair (air conditioners, toasters, etc.)

6. Clothing manufacturing

7. Transportation (such as unlicensed taxi services and unlicensed car mechanics)

8. Housing repair (someone who will fix/repair your house off-the-books)

9. Justice (a way to resolve disputes)

10. Police (a way to enforce decisions when someone is mistreated; ostracism of dishonest people might be sufficient)

11. Education (an effective homeschooling system)

12. Reference Checking (so you don’t accidentally trade with an undercover cop)

13. A way to match buyers and sellers (agorists can’t make advertisements in the newspapers or on Craigslist)

You aren’t really seriously working as an agorist until you’ve made progress on all of these. I know of no group that comes close. Some people have isolated off-the-books businesses, but I know of no community that does all of these things.

The point of agorism is that you have a group of free market businesses that support each other.

Creating an legal on-the-books small business is fighting an uphill battle. The cost of regulation compliance is a tax (lawyers and accountants). Your income taxes are used to provide subsidies for your large corporate competitors. Your profits are stolen via inflation and given to your large corporate competitors.

When you see an anonymous poster on a discussion forum, how do you know they aren’t someone who’s intetionally disrupting discussion? It’s hard to tell the difference between someone who’s merely clueless, and someone who’s being deliberately disruptive. The bad guys plant spies in nearly every group of people, including online discussion forums. (In Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 film, there was an example of an undercover cop in a peaceful war protest group.) I don’t bother making a distinction among the various types of trolls.

[Maxliberty]

@MsPatriot

An example I came across while looking at it, all looked fine until I came to the laws aspect. I am not against having laws, rules, guidelines - and overall, had no issue with the rest of it on the whole - but where I had a personal obstacle would be in their presumption that life begins with conception, something that is factually untrue when presented in that specific context. Those who feel life begins at conception are those who simply do not have the proper education of the entire function and purpose of sexual reproduction, or the actual processes and stages involved - as opposed to “this is our opinion and if you disagree, you’re free to not participate.” Perhaps had it been presented this way I could’ve overlooked it (if I had more serious intention of participation down the road - and I do admit that I was liking the idea enough to consider it very seriously). Also, overall I could personally overlook it considering I am 44 and no longer intending on getting pregnant if I can possibly help it and if I did, I’d most assuredly seriously consider abortion at this late date (another “law” I’m sure would come in conflict).

You say quite a bit more than this but your general arguement is that you may not agree with some of the laws of the SDK which is the first Private Defense Agency in the Liberty Colony. Many freedom seekers are confused about the level of agreement that will exist in a free society. Do you think it is possible that we will get 100% agreement in any free society? It is not even possible in the intitial stages of the Liberty Colony with 200 people. What do you think will happen with a million people?

You argue for different definitions or standards for certain activities. That is fine, I am not imposing what I think on you, I am just stating what I and the SDK are going to do. The question you should ask yourself is what are you going to do about the people who disagree with you? For example some people believe it is acceptable to have sex with people who have not reached puberty? What are you going to do when these people start having sex with young children? What are you going to do when you see someone in their front lawn beating a child to death?

Just beacuse we are developing a free society does not mean that there will be no conflict. I fully expect that there will be a general sense of what behaviors are acceptable in the Liberty Colony but I do not expect 100% unanimity and nor should you.

If you stick around this forum a while you will see the big difference between myself and the agorists is that I will gladly discuss and answer any question about the Liberty Colony whereas the agorists will run from serious inquiry.

[Maxliberty]

@fsk

My primary reason for being a theoretical agorist and not a practical agorist is that I don’t know any suitable trading partners. It’s hard when you don’t have any interpersonal freedom. All the people I currently hang out with are strongly opposed to the risks of agorism.

Also, I earn a decent salary in my job as a slave software engineer. I’d need an agorist business opportunity that is just as profitable, for it to be worth considering full-time.

Right now, raising awareness is more important than putting theory into practice.

It’s good to see that there are people besides me defending agorism. That is progress compared to a year ago. It’s also nice to see trolls attacking agorism. That didn’t occur a year ago.

Once you realize “government is evil!”, then it merely is a question of tactics. The Federal Reserve and income tax are really a massive enslavement system. The true beneficiaries of government are a small handful of people, and the rest of us are cattle.

I have seen no strategy for defeating the bad guys that is more promising than agorism. If agorism has a nonzero chance of success and other strategies have zero chance of success, then I should investigate agorism more.

What tactics are best for reducing the evil power of government? Agorism is a strategy of individual secession. However, you can’t do it alone. You need a group of people willing to share the profits and risks.

What other strategies are there? The Libertarian party has been a proven failure for a long time. The current Libertarian Presidential candiate (Bob Barr) is accused of being a huge statist. Make a self-sufficient community in a remote area (Liberty Colony)? That didn’t work for the Montana Freemen or Branch Davidians. An armed self-sufficient community is like wearing a huge bullseye.

If you practice agorism, even part-time, you’re increasing your personal freedom even if you don’t defeat the State. If enough people practice agorism, that will be the end of the State. How many active participants are needed? 1%? 3%? 10%? 50%? It isn’t clear.

Some people are in agreement over “The State is evil!”, but are in strong disagreement over what tactics are best.

In order to be a full agorist, you need all of the following:

1. A sound monetary system, and a conventient way to trade between fiat paper and gold/silver.

2. A safe place to store your savings and profits. (If you store gold in your residence, you risk theft by common criminals and you risk theft by criminals wearing badges and uniforms.)

3. Food manufacturing (off-the-books farming and cooking)

4. Free market health care (doctors without a State license)

5. Appliance manufacturing and repair (air conditioners, toasters, etc.)

6. Clothing manufacturing

7. Transportation (such as unlicensed taxi services and unlicensed car mechanics)

8. Housing repair (someone who will fix/repair your house off-the-books)

9. Justice (a way to resolve disputes)

10. Police (a way to enforce decisions when someone is mistreated; ostracism of dishonest people might be sufficient)

11. Education (an effective homeschooling system)

12. Reference Checking (so you don’t accidentally trade with an undercover cop)

13. A way to match buyers and sellers (agorists can’t make advertisements in the newspapers or on Craigslist)

You aren’t really seriously working as an agorist until you’ve made progress on all of these. I know of no group that comes close. Some people have isolated off-the-books businesses, but I know of no community that does all of these things.

The point of agorism is that you have a group of free market businesses that support each other.

Creating an legal on-the-books small business is fighting an uphill battle. The cost of regulation compliance is a tax (lawyers and accountants). Your income taxes are used to provide subsidies for your large corporate competitors. Your profits are stolen via inflation and given to your large corporate competitors.

When you see an anonymous poster on a discussion forum, how do you know they aren’t someone who’s intetionally disrupting discussion? It’s hard to tell the difference between someone who’s merely clueless, and someone who’s being deliberately disruptive. The bad guys plant spies in nearly every group of people, including online discussion forums. (In Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 film, there was an example of an undercover cop in a peaceful war protest group.) I don’t bother making a distinction among the various types of trolls.

You are very representative of the agorists. Unwillinging to have discussion about how agorism is supposed to actually work and unwillinging to participate in agorist activity yourself. It is just a complete joke. I suggested creating a platform for online gold currency which should be right up your alley if you were even remotely serious and you ran like a little girl. All I was suggesting you do was write some software code and as a software progammer agorist your not even willing to do that.

If you don’t have the courage of your own convictions how on earth can you expect anyone else to take your advice and do what you state you are unwilling to do yourself?