Any link to “Hoppe’s class theory” ? For the record, I doubt that Long’s, Konkin’s or other libertarians’ class theories rely on marxism.
Actually it’s the other way around…
Here, though it’s more of an Austrian extension of classical liberal class theory.
Religion is a primitive form of philosophy, and I haven’t seen any religion that hold classical liberal/capitalist ideals in very high esteem, and it seems unlikely to say the least that an individualist, laissez-faire capitalist society would be very religious. Capitalism is a social system based individual rights, including property rights and most, if not all, religions that are of any significance are anti-laissez-faire, anti-reason and anti-individual rights. This means that religion is a philosophical enemy of ours (just like socialism, conservatism, mutualism, environmentalism etc.), and I can’t imagine a capitalist society being upheld philosophically by anti-capitalist religions.
In its very essense Christianity is anti-capitalist, most of all because of its altruist ideals.
Please do read Jon’s link. It might better help you understand where Giles, myself and other so-called conservatives are coming from.
What utter nonsense.
i enjoy the term anarchist, it has a nice ring to it, ill keep using it.
Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with capitalism. The Christian worldview views man as a low, sinful, irrational and selfish being. It’s primitive, irrational and mystical. Christian morality is in its essence altruism, and altruism is totally incompatible with capitalism (and cannot serve as a foundation), because altruism says that one ought to/should sacrifice oneself for others. Jesus position on greed, selfishness, profit, money etc. is very clear.
“Can they [Christians] praise the profit motive–while extolling selflessness? Can they commend the passion to own material property–while declaring that worldly possessions are not important? Can they urge men to practice the virtues of productiveness and long-range planning–while upholding as the human model the lilies of the field? Can they celebrate the self-assertive risk-taking of the entrepreneur–while teaching that the meek shall inherit the earth? Can they glorify and liberate the creative ingenuity of the human mind, which is the real source of material wealth–while elevating faith above reason? The answers are obvious… no religion, by its nature can appeal to or admire the capitalist system; not if the religion is true to itself.”/ Leonard Peikoff
Last I checked, the necessary precondition for capitalism was the non-aggression principle, not egoism.
Edit: Incidentally, NAP follows much more plausibly from “love thy neighbor” than from anything egoism has to offer.
Does capitalism oppose charity, allowing your children to stay in the house, etc? If so, perhaps we’ve went wrong somewhere.
Why is morality and NAP separate issues?
Yep, that’s right. It also forbids people from listening to Mozart.[:P]
Hmm… I’m not sure how you construed my comment so that it would imply that.
Christianity views many things that is part of a capitalist system as wrong. It oppose the profit motive, declares that worldly possessions are not important and seing self-interest as wrong etc. In no way can Christian ideals be seen as a good foundation of capitalism.
I’m sorry I must have misunderstood you and read too much into your comment! But you are correct in that capitalism is based on individual rights (i.e. NAP).
Great. Moving on… You have claimed that Christianity (as you’ve described it) is incompatible with capitalism. Therefore it must violate NAP. Based on your description why is this the case?
It’s incompatible in that it opposes many things that are part of the capitalist system. Christianity doesn’t believe in individual rights in any liberal/capitalist sense. The Bible is full of violations of people’s rights, and in many places such violations are viewed as moral.
Furthermore it opposes important aspects of the capitalist system, such as profit, profit motive, wealth, selfishness etc. Capitalism as a system enables selfishness. The right to own property is the right to enjoy ones possessions and dispose of them as one pleases, which is a fundamentally selfish thing. Capitalism simply allows people to pursue their self-interest. One cannot praise capitalism and remain true to Christianity, since vital aspects of any of them goes against the other (Christianity, i.e. the Bible both advocates violations of rights and is againt many parts of the capitalist system - see above!).
Capitalism begins with the production of goods and services and moves on to keeping, using and trading the products of one’s efforts for others. This is done to improve one’s situation. Let this stand in contrast with Christianity which says that worldly possessions are not important.
Does capitalism require people morally oppose aggression? It seems to me that it would only require that people think aggression is imprudent. Also, Christians normally make excuses like “the Bible describes a different time” when archaic rules are brought up (i.e., mixing synthetic and natural fibers is considered wrong, slavery is legitimate, polygamy is okay, etc), but I’ve yet to see a Christian who says, “The Ten Commandments are just from a different time.”
See, the problem is you are doing that Randian thing with the word “selfish” and thinking anyone else means it the way you do. When a Christian gives to charity and feels good about it, they don’t think of the act as “selfish” just because they got some benefit. If you want to see “selfishness” in most everything, you can. Lots of things can be seen at an egoistic level. But most people don’t think it counts as egoism/selfishness unless you are aiming at that egoistic desire (good psychological feelings, material benefits, etc). If you do something because it is your Christian duty, even if you are greatly rewarded for it, they will not consider that to be selfish.
Except, evidently, if that self-interest involves Christianity.
Does one need to praise capitalism in order to live in a capitalistic society? One needn’t praise humanity to live in a human society. It could be a second best situation that people are willing to accept.
I don’t think you quite understand what they mean by this. Christianity doesn’t say, “have no wordly possessions.” If it did, all Christians would have long ago died from thirst/starvation - food and water are “worldly possessions.” What it says is, “worldly possessions are not as important as spiritual goods.” So, a Christian gives to charity because the wordly possession (money, food, clothing, whatever) is less important than the spiritual good of helping the needy. You see? And all that is completely compatible with capitalism, indeed, it’s good that people like that exist, for those who couldn’t make it on their own.
Capitalism is based on individual rights, and is thus against the use of force, and an ideology, philosophy or religion that condones such things in one way or the other is against the fundamental principles of capitalism. And Christians own inconsistent applications of their religion don’t make Christianity in and of itself more compatible with capitalism on a philosophical level.
Well, I’m not primarily talking about charity, but rather basic things that Christianity is against, thinks is immoral etc. Capitalism (as a system) brings about certain things that Christianity speaks disfavor ably of.
Does one need to praise capitalism in order to live in a capitalistic society? One needn’t praise humanity to live in a human society. It could be a second best situation that people are willing to accept.
[/quote]
No you don’t, but you cannot praise a system that goes against your ethics, and that your system/ethics speaks out against - and remain consistent with it.
No offense, every consequentialist libertarian ever. Mises, David Friedman, among many others apparently oppose capitalism because they do not morally oppose force in all circumstances?
Like what? Killing, stealing, etc? Or do you mean like not worshiping God, not being adulterous, etc? I don’t see how that matters much, so long as Christianity doesn’t demand that they use violence to impose their morality (which is doesn’t).
I don’t see how capitalism goes against Christian ethics. You should read up on the Spanish Scholastics, a favorite of Murray Rothbard, who developed very advanced and very free market economic theories.