Radio wave frequency vs IP -- property under libertarian law?

For someone who has claimed to be familiar with David Friedman, you seem to forget many of his answers to your questions. Even if a fundamentalist Christian believes it is immoral to pursue homosexual acts, what is the price he is willing to pay to prevent and punish those that do pursue them? Is it more than what homosexuals are willing to pay to defend themselves?

No, the only inherent qualities to homicide are the things that make it homicide, i.e., the actual killing of another person. What makes a homicide murder is one’s subjective view of the homicide. For some, any homicide is murder. For others, only homicides that are not done in self defense are murders. But the only inherent qualities to the killing of another human being is the killing of another human being. You believing it wrong is not inherent to the action itself.

It’s the same with homosexual acts.

You better clarify some more, because you are rapidly losing credibility by claiming that Bob Murphy and Tom Woods would agree with you about Christians not being able to be libertarians. Both are Christians, and both are libertarians.

That is an example of consequentialist libertarianism.

This is why I asked you if you knew what law is and its purpose. It doesn’t matter what you think the price of apples ought to be. The price emerges from the various voluntary exchanges in society. If you think that a price for a Fuji apple should be $0.50 instead of $0.75, that’s great. If you think that is the correct price, so be it. But guess what? Prices don’t exist for you and you alone. They exist so that everyone can measure their values and decide whether it’s worth it to exchange for the apples or not.

It’s the same with law. You can have whatever opinion you want about what is moral or what you think the law ought to be. But the law does not exist for you and you alone. Other people want to get along and resolve their conflicts too. Who are you to decide for them?

  1. Who cares?

  2. People can disagree that a certain act is murder. Just like they could disagree that a certain animal is a mammal. But people believe that murder is immoral, objectively. (At least the people who believe in objective morality.)

It is possible that whatever it is makes it murder also makes it immoral. I.e., some people believe that taking of life in an of itself is evil. Under all circumstances. Others believe that taking life in self-defense is not evil. Some believe that taking life during a war is evil. Others disagree.

But all these people in question can agree that either those acts are objectively evil – have an objective property of evil – or not. They perceive evil in those acts through their intuition, which, admittedly can give conflicting results (but the same is true regarding people’s perceptions of objective properties through senses or logic).

  1. I am not saying what they are. I am saying that according to your logic, when one’s moral views must be the only source of what one believes must be (or “is”, in natural sense) the law, Christians cannot be libertarians, at least deontological ones. Maybe Tom Woods and Bob Murphy are consequentialist libertarians. I have no reason to believe the opposite.

  2. Yes, my argument is consequentialist. But so are all the so-called deontological arguments that I have heard so far (except Hoppe’s AE which in my opinion is wrong). Here is a typical deontological argument that I have heard from libertarians (e.g., Kinsella, etc.):

– it is our groundnorm that aggression is wrong

– but aggression depends on one’s definition of property (i.e., it’s not aggression if the property is not yours)

– our concept of property is based on homesteading

– why homesteading?

– because the purpose of the law is to resolve conflicts, and homesteading provides the clearest way to resolve conflicts

– this is a consequentialist argument; there could be a number of other ways to assign property; for instance, based on urgency of need to use, desire to promote creativity, etc. those could be based on one’s moral views, for instance.

– the purpose of the law is not to promote creativity; it’s to resolve conflicts over property

– but what motivates you to define property one way or another remains unclear, unless you prefer homesteading over other methods based on some religious values, which seems unlikely

– NAP! NAP! NAP! You can’t rob people to promote creativity!

(OK, Kinsella did not say the last line. :slight_smile: That would be in a Facebook conversation.)

I.e., the argument is somewhat circular, and the punchline is basically that libertarians prefer clear conflict resolution over more subjective kinds (like urgency of use, etc.) – which is a consequentialist argument.

I am not sure what the last question means. (I.e., I could answer that I can decide for them because I am right. I have figure out how to figure out whether something is just or not.) We can rephrase it as “why should they care what I think?” Because I can demonstrate a way to figure out a just resolution of a conflict. Presumably. But I don’t know what libertarians think that means, unless, as you mentioned, one relies on one’s morality.

I.e., I understand your answer; I am just trying to see if there is another one. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I do think it cleared up some issues.

About what?

People can certainly choose to classify animals however they want. Someone can classify a bat as a bird if they want to. But the thing is, that doesn’t change what makes a bat a bat. Murder is a wrongful homicide. Guess what? The only inherent quality there is the homicide. The rightness and wrongness is a value of a subject. The rightness or wrongness of a homicide is not inherent to the actual action that takes place.

So sure, someone can say they believe that murder is objectively immoral, but it’s a nonsensical phrase under scrutiny.

You are very confused.

I asked you where else the source of your beliefs about anything can come from, and I have yet to get a response. Your values and morals are what inform your decisions about anything you do and believe. I never claimed that Christians couldn’t be libertarians, nor does “my” logic imply it. You, however, are the one that offered the idea Christians could not be libertarians, and then you went on to claim that Murphy and Woods would agree with what you wrote.

From what I remember, neither Murphy nor Woods are consequentialist libertarians. Maybe you would like to start offering evidence of your claims about them.

  1. What an unbelievable misrepresentation of deontological libertarianism. I may disagree with Rothbard and Block on many things, but I would at least try to frame their deontological arguments accurately. And I have never read a Kinsella argument like that.

You might want to portray the deontological libertarian argument accurately before you accuse it of anything. And the beauty of a consequentialist libertarian argument is that people can agree with you even if they don’t share your morality exactly. It’s all about mutual respect.

If you are right, then you don’t need to decide for them. If your answer is right for them, they will agree to it without you forcing it upon them. If you have to force it upon them, then it is clearly not right for them.

A lot of philosophers would disagree. Including, for instance, David Friedman. Or Michael Huemer:

See more in this essay: http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/objectiv.htm

And others would disagree with that post there. So what? You posted a flawed argument and are appealing to authority. All I can see from you is that you do not understand the price system or subjectivism.

What a laughable proposition.

I would also like you to source your claim that David Friedman believes in objective morality. I have never encountered this, and I just did some searching and found nothing to support this claim.

Please support this or retract it. If it exists, I would very much like to read what Friedman wrote. But I highly doubt he did in fact say this. You are making some very bold claims regarding Bob Murphy, Tom Woods, and David Friedman. And so far these claims appear to be baseless.

Yeah, I’m 99% sure it’s false that Friedman holds moral propositions to be objectively true or false.

Clayton -

I did not make any claims about either Murphy or Woods. I was just examining logical implications of your statement that one cannot base one’s deontological preferences for the law except on one’s morality.

Proposition about Stalin was from phenomenological conservatism.

My point was not to appeal to authority, but to show that plenty people believe in objective morality. Including many Christians. The assertions I made have a part in philosophical discussion about morality.

I do understand subjectivity. I just find it wrong.

  1. That link does not support your statement about Friedman.

My goodness, all we have to do is scroll up to read what you said:

You made many claims about Bob Murphy and Tom Woods during that exchange. I hate to have to quote like that, but you need to own up to what you said. This is an internet forum. Everything is still on the page.

You know, this is actually getting kind of boring at this point. I said this in response to this accusation earlier:

But you chose to ignore it. You have been consistently ignoring key pieces of my arguments throughout this thread. I have had to repost whole sections of my arguments several times in order to finally get some kind of response. I don’t think you are arguing in good faith.

It’s a laughable proposition on so many levels, and you posted it as evidence of an argument for objective morality. Sure, plenty of people believe in a lot of wrong things, of which the objective morality you are describing is one of them.

You have never demonstrated an understanding of subjectivity. Your denial of subjectivity leads to a denial of Austrian Economics. Have you read at least the beginning of Human Action? If not, go read it. If yes, go read it again. Also, I will take your views on objective morality seriously when:

  1. You provide an argument without a laughably false premise, and

  2. You show me what combination of atoms constitutes the characteristics known as “rightness” and “wrongness”.

While we’re at it, I’d love to read your summary of what you think subjective morality is, because as far as I can tell, you either outright ignore what I write or it just goes over your head. Hint: Start with subjective value.

You are right, this doesn’t mean that Friedman believes that moral truths are objective (emphasis mine):

I read that. Did you read the words “very tentative” or even the last two sentences?

What you quoted me saying about Murphy and Woods does not say anything about what I believe their views on deontological libertarianism actually are. (Except a quote of what Murphy told me personally – which I didn’t make up.)

Because you start claiming that they might be consequentialists instead, and that you have no reason to believe otherwise.

How about you stop speculating into what these people believe? Maybe you just source them when you want to speculate?

I’m going to stop wasting my time here until you start to take debating seriously. Source your shit. Reply to my arguments. Don’t make me repost entire passages several times.

Until you do that, we’re through in this thread. I have other things to do with my time, and I’m not going to waste it with someone who only pretends to want to discuss a topic.

Yes. So?

OK, I feel like this discussion doesn’t actually contribute anything to the topic. I am sure others don’t care about the back-and-forth bickering.

Re: deontological: my somewhat unclear tangent’s point was that I have read other deontological discussions of libertarianism. They usually rest on arguments reducible to consequentialism (except Hoppe, who, as I said, I think is logically wrong). No different from my account of contractarian expectations from law.

(By the way, Kinsella admits that he is a consequentialist. So, I take the reference to him back.)