Please, join me and dozens of other Agorists as we participate in the RNC Welcoming Committee this year in Minneapolis then.
Hopefully I can get a nice rotten tomato for Ron Paul’s head and a good pumpkin for pumpkin head (McCain). [Y]
My experience is MUCH different. Many of my ex-girlfriends have been rabid feminists and are now close friends and enthusiastic Anarchists.
This isn’t a problem at all. It’s simply radical.
lol
Apparently… You do.
No. Just twats like you and xenophobe, mini-statists like Ron Paul. [D]
I will contend once again that if the sriz biznezz of the internets “alienates” you, then you’re not exactly worthwhile to persue in the first place.
This is like a cat toy for me. You’re so easy.
lol.
I think we have a contender for the king of ad hominems. At least I win for most creative though.
Uh huh… And I’m sure it’s a fine book. That was never my point though.
You’re an ass. You’re a total turnoff. You could be leading the way to liberty, and I wouldn’t follow you. I have no respect for you, and in turn, it diminishes my interest in agorism.
That said, I agree with FSK.
Second, you’re entirely missing the point of agorism. If you suggest a protest at the Republican National Convention, that is the OPPOSITE of agorism. Agorism is anti-politics. A true agorist knows that rioting and protesting is a complete waste of time.
Agorism is about counter-economics. It’s about doing productive and useful work without getting permission from the State or letting them loot the proceeds of your labor. If you’re suggesting a political protest, you’re one of those pro-State anarchists.
I read there was some sort of schism on the LibertarianLeft mailing lists. Allegedly, a bunch of fools took over the mailing list and the sensible people left to start a new one. You’re hanging out with pro-State agorists.
I’m not interested in hanging out with a bunch of fools. If you have a serious counter-economic business plan, I’d help you with it.
~~
Disrupting a political party meeting doesn’t accomplish anything. It’s the wrong sort of venue to raise awareness. The media coverage isn’t going to be “Look at these people who want free market alternatives to government.” It’s going to be “Look at those crazy anarchists. Luckily, we have the State to keep them in line.”
The odds of actually disrupting the RNC are practically zero. There’s no way a group of amateurs could win a direct confrontation with trained para-military police.
Even if you had a magic wand and could assassinate every member of Congress, the President, Vice President, and every federal judge, that would accomplish nothing. Instead of covert martial law, which is the current situation, there would be overt martial law.
Using violence to disrupt the State won’t be practical until it’s close to collapsing. For example, suppose we already are at the point where the State is close to collapsing. The State demands you pay property taxes. You refuse. At this point, it would be practical to hire a private police force to prevent the State from kicking you off your land. That’s an example of properly using violence to resist the State. Such resistance isn’t practical until the end of the State is near. In the present, all you can do is pay property taxes and move to an area with low property tax rates.
When the State is close to collapsing, the fee paid to the private police force would be LESS than the taxes/tribute demanded by the State! Once private police can credibly defend people from the State, and they charge less than the State demands in tribute, it’s all over!
The correct way to spread agorism is to actually start a free market business. If you want to start a free market taxi service (“gypsy cab”), then you should tell your friends and look for trustworthy customers. That’s a valid way to spread agorism.
A blog is valid another way to raise awareness. People who are interested will find my blog, or other blogs about free market alternatives to government.
I like to make a distinction between black market (marijuana farming/sales) and grey market (free market taxis). I’m much more interested in building a grey market than a black market. Marijuana actually really is bad for you, so I’m not interested in marijuana farming. Free market taxis, food farming, or restaurants are much more interesting.
I haven’t read much about counter-economics in Russia. In a communist dictatorship, counter-economics can become necessary for survival!
I think you’re confused about “networking to spread information”. Riots and protests aren’t that effective. The Internet allows people to communicate in ways that weren’t previously possible. The Internet allows people to find free market trading partners much easier than in the past. Just because something hasn’t succeeded in the past, doesn’t mean it won’t succeed in the future. A serious “economic revolt” hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t see any profit in disrupting the Republican National Convention. You probably won’t convert many new people to agorism, at least not compared to other activities such as blogging or actually starting a free market business. The Republican National Convention will occur as planned. You’ll be opposed by para-military police.
I can’t stop you from wasting your time. You aren’t going to convince me that protesting at the Republican National Convention is effective. It might make the protesters feel better, but it won’t actually accomplish anything.
If you’re organizing mutual self-defense, you need to focus on other things. If the State tries to kick me off my land for not paying property taxes, can I profitably resist? If the State tries to arrest me for refusing to get permission from them to work (i.e., income taxes), can I profitably resist?
This is exactly what I am talking about. You’re into the libertarian equivalent of “hoodrat” behavior. You have no interest in free markets, you’re interested in your own version of vulgar anarchism.
I think many of you misunderstand. I don’t support him because I think he is going to be president or that I think the Republicans need to be in power. But the message of liberty and individualism is important. I don’t care about the constitution in concept either, but between it and being thrown in Guantanamo or fighting an illegal war… the premise of that document is far superior and at least one in which some of the people in power must accept at some level. This is not any different than if you begin with the premises of a socialist to begin an argument.
I don’t see how his “populist” message is any different than Rand, Hayek, or Friedman. All of whom are not perfect, but they’ve done a lot to push the idea of free markets (sure minorities of their fans got the wrong message, but people like that will never think for themselves no matter what). Ron Paul is certainly more radical and closer to anarchism than any of those names, anyway.
Oh man, this is priceless.
**
Apparently, FSK isn’t familiar with SEK3 who said, “All will fail if for no other reason than liberty grows individual by individual.”
The purpose of going to the RNC Convention is not so much for the protests itself, though calling attention to the war party and showing how they will use violence to dismiss peaceful protestors is important, but rather it is about getting boots on the ground where large array of Anarchists will be condensed so as to spread the message. This is consistent with the purpose of the first phase - apparently something FSK is also unfamiliar with. In the first phase of the Agorist revolution the most devoted Agorists will have the job of combatting anti-principles and radicalizing Anarchists. This is the purpose of going up to Minnessota.
Also, FSK doesn’t seem to even understand the LeftLib yahoo group and the situation that occurred there. No, there wasn’t a split, it was just the death of the MLL that occurred. With the death of SEK3, his estate and all his work was seceded to a non-Agorist and an outsider to libertarianism. He didn’t do anything with the LL group and there was no split, just a death.
I don’t know where this FSK guy is getting his information, but it certainly isn’t from SEK3 or even a dictionary! No. Black market activity is not just drug trade, prostitution, etc. There is effectively no separation between black markets and grey markets in Agorism.
This is the “differentiation” between black markets and grey markets in a vendiagram (sp?) form.
Black markets are all non-aggressive actions deemed illegal by the state - including, but not excluded to, things like illegal taxis. Grey markets are all state approved actions in an illegal manner - only things like illegal taxis.
As far as the effectiveness goes, FSK is obviously out of the Agorist circle. Our purpose of doing this has nothing to do with stopping the state, it’s abotu organization.
Wasn’t being serious there… Just wanted to get another rise out of you. [:^)]
And I think you misunderstand. My biggest problem with Ron Paul is that it is a net loss of resource.
Even if you, like libby, think I’m a wasting resources - by taunting him on the internets I guess… [^o)] - I’m not wasting $30 million worth. And that’s the point! Ron Paul is building something through a central plan - through politics. Of course the message is important, but I think it could have been better expressed more efficiently by something else.
Liberty Student, I’m 100% with you. I really can’t fathom why some people on this board so disdain Ron Paul and can’t at least respect him for opening so many people’s eyes and causing them to fundamentally re-think their worldview. And I further don’t understand why some can’t comprehend that such a transformation is a process, not an event. Most don’t go from run-of-the-mill liberal or conservative to Niccoló overnight.
However, Paul serves as the catalyst for which such change becomes possible. Were it not for him, I’m almost positive I never would have discovered Austrian economics, and I probably wouldn’t have branched out into broader Libertarian theory and anarchism either. As such, for all his many faults, RP will always hold a special place in my heart.
Anyway, that said, I strongly believe that you should tone down your rhetoric, Niccoló. You’re obviously more than intelligent enough, but maybe you shouldn’t banish people from the movement for not subscribing EXACTLY to the way you think, condemn people to death for disagreeing over inane and constantly changing labels, or chide those not quite ready to fully embrace anarchism. Though I enjoy reading your posts and have by now grown accustomed to your tone, it’s not exactly pleasant and definitely serves as a turn-off to newbs. Of course I’m sure you’ll berate me for even saying this, but whatever.
It’s none of your business. It’s a free market. People are welcome to invest where they choose, and reap the rewards or consequences of those decisions.
Your real failure is an inability to provide an alternate use for those resources. In the marketplace of liberty, Paul has and is gaining market share, and it seems to me this frustrates you. Either that you do not have his platform to speak from or frustration that you have an inability to create an effective message.
That’s a terribly weak argument. What next, Bush is less of a killer than Lincoln?
Actually, Paul is using politics like his personal movement whore. He uses the state apparatus to attack the state from within, by voting against bills, speaking out against state power, and trying to shift taxation away from liberty.
Who is out on network TV talking about Lysander Spooner? Who is talking about Rothbard? Who is questioning Lincoln? Who is arguing against taxation? Who is arguing for property rights? Who has gathered millions of votes (some sort of endorsement or acknowledgement) for a pro-liberty (if imperfect) platform?
Who is crossing over to new voters, young people, socialists, capitalists, even statists?
Who has challenged the welfare/warfare state? Who has even questioned the sacred western political cow of democracy?
Paul.
But of course, we have to throw tomatoes protesting the RNC, instead of finding ways to absorb his supporters and channel them further into a liberty movement, provide education and support.
It’s all just talk as you try to gain some notoriety and attention Nick.
I don’t think anyone is wasting resources. I am not trying to hurry in an era of utopia. I only offer my two cents.
Okay, so it’s fine for those who disagree with Niccolo to “say without actually saying” that he should shut-up, or else? Yea, that doesn’t seem contradictory at all.
Seems to me his audience isn’t minarchists or those who necassrily disagree with him, but rather anarchists with some lingering sympathies towards political action, thinking that minarchists are automatically allies (which is a dubious assumption that should be addressed). If you don’t like the show, then go to a different show :).
Like liberty student said, it’s a free market; stop acting as if you are holier than thou by thinking that calling for Niccolo to tone down his rhetoric is for some type of good for some group of people or for the debate, because it isn’t.
That being said, I hope whoever bought the book (over-priced & over-rated, imo, but I digress) got something out of it. I don’t endorse the book (deleted my pre-order a little while ago), but I’m certaintly not about to advocate some type of book burning of the Manifesto in order to “purge toxic thought”.
Bastiat’s “what is seen and what is not seen” applies perfectly to the political process itself.
Appeal to authority.
You could get boots on the ground for any number of events. It’s no coincidence that this is a protest of the RNC.
Btw, Paul is going to protest the RNC. And he will get media attention. And probably outnumber the anarchists. But he doesn’t pretend to be apolitical like you.
It’s about a failed idea to capitalize on the media stickiness of the RNC to promote anarchy.
You guys could meet anywhere, anytime. It speak volumes about your commitment to the ideology, that you need an enemy to rail against (the RNC or Paul) rather than having actual tasks to complete, even in the absence of evil.
Movements like yours don’t have an endpoint. Because they never really have a starting point. I think SEK3 figured this out once he had a child.
People radicalize, until they realize that radicalism is it’s own end, not an ideological one.
I’m not so sure… I beginning to think that it’s might be too early to tell whether or not wasting resources is ocurring, but the resources & methods are certaintly changing.
If the trend of the “RP Revolution” becoming increasingly less about RP himself (as the reverse money bomb & Paulville have demonstrated a shift towards apolitical tactics & a “inspired by RP, but it’s our own agenda” type attitude) continues, I would attribute said supporters as being positive, whereas those who remain dedicated to RP are probably wasting their time.
From an anarchist point of view, RP does seem to be a waste of time with regards to “restoring the republic” in an effort to ban-aid a system beyond repair & only prone to further rotting.
More & more people get re-assured that “government works, with the right collectives & levers in place”, who would be otherwise easier to argue & persuade for anarchism, and be potential converts, if there is constant political dissilusionment (which may also mean polarization; there’s been a fair share of popular political dissillusionment since the 2000 elections).
The education campaign thus becomes harder & more than likley, lengthened, in an effort to battle the re-surgence of Statist political thought, especially since recent trends (focuses on “bi-partisanship”, “moderates”, etc.) already point to increasingly Centrist activity, which, needless to say, isn’t pretty*.
A further divergence here would be anarchists who consider the RP event a “gateway” towards the more radical thoughts, & those who absolutley oppose it on principle & ethics, and would even consider the previously mentioned anarchists who view the RP event as “somewhat” educational to be reformist sympathizers.
From a minarchist point of view, RP seems to be a potentianlly good thing in regards to spreading information of different concepts & ideas that have not entered mainstreak politik before (or for a long time), and thereby increasing the amount of potential voters that will help sway a move towards smaller government.
There also seems to be a divergence, similar to the one above, where some minarchists will absolutley insist that minarchism will be required and.or helpful to the anarchists, as there would be less to dismantle, and a gradual change in political thought towards smaller government would help open more minds towards the possibilites of anarchism.
Some will insist that anarchism is not needed, and will advocate a de-clawed state being necessary, and possibly, give enough time, would eventually consider the above minarchist sympathizers possible political enemies; this is one of my primary criticisms of minarchism, as political power still exists, and thus, a collective with political power still has the ability to abuse it, even if it meant turning on previous consitutients.
To re-iterate my first sentence, the only thing I do know, is that I don’t know for sure. Based on my 2cents though, I would say RP will ultimatley make things more complicated, rather than worse or better.
By pumpkin you mean a .308 from a Remington 700 VS, right? And ‘pumpkin head’ is your codeword for assassinating John McCain? And ‘other Agorists’ is code for your local al-Qaeda cadre? Allahu akbar!
Sorry, I just want Homeland Security to give you a warm welcome at St. Paul. And hi to the NSA dataminer reading this. 
Nitro – reading Niccoló as writing for a specific audience – and one that already agrees with him – does change my interpretation a bit. I made the mistake of assuming he sought to convince others of his viewpoints. With that in mind, I intended merely to point out that he’d be far more successful if he weren’t such a pr*ck about it. I didn’t think that would be interpreted as a “shut up or else” type of thing. Just throwing my opinion out there, not that many people (least of all Niccoló) care.
It stands to reason you would have this experience. You spend a lot of time with your girlfriend. But obviously we can’t start systematically dating every feminist out there, which is why other groups offer better opportunities in my opinion.