Rothbard libertarian

“As regards the utilitarian position, the proof contains its ultimate refutation. It demonstrates that simply in order to propose the utilitarian position, exclusive rights of control over one’s body and one’s homesteaded goods already must be presupposed as valid. More specifically, as regards the consequentialist aspect of libertarianism, the proof shows its praxeological impossibility: the assignment of rights of exclusive control cannot be dependent on certain outcomes. One could never act and propose anything unless private property rights existed prior to a later outcome. A consequentialist ethic is a praxeological absurdity. Any ethic must instead be “aprioristic” or instantaneous in order to make it possible that one can act here and now and propose this or that rather than having to suspend acting until later. Nobody advocating a wait-for-the-outcome ethic would be around to say anything if he took his own advice seriously. Also, to the extent that utilitarian proponents are still around, they demonstrate through their actions that their consequentialist doctrine is and must be regarded as false. Acting and proposition-making require private property rights now and cannot wait for them to be assigned only later.”

  • HHH, Economics & Ethics of Private Property, p354

Here’s my two cents:

I don’t understand why people think it is inconsistent to defend libertarianism on both utilitarian and ethical grounds. How do they contradict or weaken a chance for liberty? Defending liberty through both utility and ethics just helps your argument further, wouldn’t people prefer want a solution which not only is ethically superior but has great utility? I mean many people are statists because they see the state as the only instrument they have on utilitarian grounds for people to live a better life, so arguing against that instead of avoiding it will only give the liberty more appeal. There’s always more then one way to show someone some truth.

David D Friedman has some interesting opinions about this topic on Chapter 42 and 43 of Machinery of Freedom. I’ll read it when I get a chance, and pull some quotes.

“I don’t understand why people think it is inconsistent to defend libertarianism on both utilitarian and ethical grounds. How do they contradict or weaken a chance for liberty?”

Grounding Political Debate - Benjamin Marks

Also:

“[A] truly free market, a truly libertarian society devoted to justice and property rights, can only be established there [in the underdeveloped world] by ending unjust feudal claims to property. But utilitarian economists, grounded on no ethical theory of property rights, can only fall back on defending whatever status quo may happen to exist” - Ethics of liberty, p. 70

“The Friedmanites concede the existence of air pollution but propose to meet it, not by a defense of property rights, but rather by a supposedly utilitarian “cost-benefit” calculation by government, which will then make and enforce a “social decision” on how much pollution to allow. This decision would then be enforced either by licensing a given amount of pollution (the granting of “pollution rights”), by a graded scale of taxes against it, or by the taxpayers paying firms not to pollute. Not only would these proposals grant an enormous amount of bureaucratic power to government in the name of safeguarding the “free market”; they would continue to override property rights in the name of a collective decision enforced by the State. This is far from any genuine “free market,” and reveals that, as in many other economic areas, it is impossible to really defend freedom and the free market without insisting on defending the rights of private property.” - FNL

“We see, therefore, that the supposed defense of the free market and of property rights by utilitarians and free-market economists is a very weak reed indeed. Lacking a theory of justice that goes beyond the existing imprimatur of government, utilitarians can only go along with every change and shift of government allocation after they occur, no matter how arbitrary, rapid, or politically motivated such shifts might be. And, since they provide no firm roadblock to governmental reallocations of property, the utilitarians, in the final analysis, can offer no real defense of property rights themselves. Since governmental redefinitions can and will be rapid and arbitrary, they cannot provide long-run certainty for property rights; and, therefore, they cannot even ensure the very social and economic efficiency which they themselves seek.[4] All this is implied in the pronouncements of utilitarians that any future free society must confine itself to whatever definitions of property titles the government may happen to be endorsing at that moment.” - [Justice and Property Rights: The Failure of Utilitarianism](http:// http://mises.org/daily/4047)

"Let us consider a hypothetical example of the failure of the utilitarian defense of private property. Suppose that somehow government becomes persuaded of the necessity to yield to a clamor for a free-market, laissez-faire society. Before dissolving itself, however, it redistributes property titles, granting the ownership of the entire territory of New York to the Rockefeller family, of Massachusetts to the Kennedy family, etc. It then dissolves, ending taxation and all other forms of government intervention in the economy. However, while taxation has been abolished, the Rockefeller, Kennedy, etc., families proceed to dictate to all the residents in what is now “their” territory, exacting what are now called “rents” over all the inhabitants.[5]

It seems clear that our utilitarians could have no intellectual armor with which to challenge this new dispensation; indeed, they would have to endorse the Rockefeller, Kennedy, etc., holdings as “private property” equally deserving of support as the ordinary property titles which they had endorsed only a few months previously. All this because the utilitarians have no theory of justice in property beyond endorsement of whatever status quo happens to exist." - Justice and Property Rights: The Failure of Utilitarianism

"Turning from these men of narrow vision, we must also see that utilitarianism - the common ground of free-market economists - is unsatisfactory for developing a flourishing libertarian movement. While it is true and valuable to know that a free market would bring far greater abundance and a healthier economy to everyone, rich and poor alike, a critical problem is whether this knowledge is enough to bring many people to a lifelong dedication to liberty.

In short, how many people will man the barricades and endure the many sacrifices that a consistent devotion to liberty entails, merely so that umpteen percent more people will have better bathtubs? Will they not rather set up for an easy life and forget the umpteen percent bathtubs? Ultimately, then, utilitarian economics, while indispensable in the developed structure of libertarian thought and action, is almost as unsatisfactory a basic groundwork for the movement as those opportunists who simply seek a short-range profit.

It is our view that a flourishing libertarian movement, a lifelong dedication to liberty can only be grounded on a passion for justice. Here must be the mainspring of our drive, the armor that will sustain us in all the storms ahead, not the search for a quick buck, the playing of intellectual games or the cool calculation of general economic gains. And, to have a passion for justice, one must have a theory of what justice and injustice are - in short, a set of ethical principles of justice and injustice, which cannot be provided by utilitarian economics.

It is because we see the world reeking with injustices piled one on another to the very heavens that we are impelled to do all that we can to seek a world in which these and other injustices will be eradicated." - Why Be Libertarian?

If you are looking for a way to point out to someone that their goal of 'y[make it possible for the poor to give their children more milk], using the means of ‘x’ [price controls] will instead achieve ‘z’ [will be less milk available for the consumers, not more] - that is what Austrian Economics is for.

And you didn’t address the quote.

Epicurus, just define “libertarianism” yourself and be done with it, jesus.

LS can say anything he wants, he can say libertarian are only those people with pegged legs and eye patches, who cares.

I propose libertarian to mean “someone’s who is commited to solve any dispute first and foremost with market solutions”. There are no gray areas like that, but it is also harder to tell who’s a libertarian and who isn’t (asserting motive).

Guess what, guys?

This debate is insignificant. The word “libertarian” is used in a manner much broader than you woud like and you can’t change that. You sound like the French Academy trying to purge their language of “le weekend.”

Even if you wish to claim I am not being “logical,” all I can say to you is that: language, like markets, doesn’t work by central planning.

Is Barack Obama “black”? Is Milton Friedman “libertarian”? Same deal. You folks really need to read your Philosophical Investigations.

P.S. Ron Paul supports the State insofar as he openly advocates the Constitution (that has inherent attributes like monopolism and taxation). He is a “squishy” libertarian, according to liberty student, if he is arguing for the Constitution pragmatically.

I can control what I don’t own. I can eat what I don’t own. Hence, I can act and make propositions without owning (i.e. having a property right to) anything whatsoever.

Z.

Criticisng the state for not following its own constitution is not supporting the state very far at all. .. I don’t see that it demonstrates squishy libertarianism to criticize the state per se, unless you are bringing a whole lot of assumptions to the table.

Step 1: lump all your opponents together

Step 2: reference esoteric philosophy that you misunderstand and can’t apply properly.

Step 3: Forefeit in a way that saves face

Step 4: reference a tangentially related argument that you had a better chance of winning.

True or False: Ron Paul has publicly argued we should follow the Constitution.

Sieben, can you prove that I “can’t apply properly” Wittgenstein’s philosophy? And, it’s news to me that a philosopher bigger than any libertarian thinker is “esoteric.” Pretty much, to be an average intellectual in the year 2010 means you’ve grappled with Wittgenstein.

Sieben, is Barack Obama “black”? Answer me that, please.

P.S. I still really don’t care about this argument, because I know you can’t socially engineer language. If anything, you people should be trying to think up a neologism.

You tell me. I was the one asking you for evidence remember?

Asking for evidence that Ron Paul endorses the Constitution is a waste of my time and yours. But since you insist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHE_0bCSIVM. “We should follow the Constitution.”

From the Campaign for Liberty, “Our mission is to promote and defend the great American principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy, by means of educational and political activity.”

No one has addressed these points.

  1. In 1955, “libertarianism” was specifically used as a term for a limited-government philosophy. To claim there is a “true” definition different from this, show me an alternative etymology that proves it.
  2. Rothbard, in Strictly Confidential, calls limited-government advocates “libertarians.”

“We should follow the Constitution.”

We should follow the perfect constitution forever, or we should at least start by following the (admittedly imperfect) constitution until we are ready to embrace a stateless society?

I know you are well read and have context you can bring to bear, why not bring it?

You guys are missing the point entirely. I was not come to make a definition of libertarian, nor to criticise market-libertarians, or NAP libertarians, or Rothbardianism. My point was that blanket exclusionary statements in no way reflect the vast nuances of the libertarian movement as a whole, and only alienate potential allies, like libertarian socialists, left libertarians, and minarchists. To think that a libertarian cannot be a pragmatist towards the existing state would exlude even (probably) all of you from being libertarian.

nirgrahamUK, at the Campaign for Liberty (as I quoted), his mission is for a constitutional government, not a stateless society.

Beyond all this, I actually don’t even like calling myself a “libertarian.” I only do so when speaking to everyday people who (A) know, generally, what a libertarian is (B) would immediately dismiss my opinion if I advocated outright anarchism.

I will always prefer “anarcho-capitalism.”

I’d refer you to my previous post, but you closed that door in “Step 1”.

I never hear him mentioned in any of my internet communities. He’s seldom mentioned here despite numerous threads on epistemology. Maybe you think that means we’re not real intellectuals :frowning:

Sure. He’s “black” even tho one of his parents is white. See my discussion on boundedness.

Don’t scientists engineer language? Wouldn’t a neologism be engineering language? “Hmm… we’re trying to come up with a word that is defined as strict adherance to non-aggression… and then get everyone to use it properly”

Btw, it is getting a little old begging you to addressing my arguments. Could you grant me this little courtesy?

Go to the 4th minute