School Choice... WINNING.

Miscellaneous General
61

Right. Even the local food store is regulated by some level of government. But we don’t dare suggest to implement some sort of a voucher scheme for food stores.

All statist plans fail. Now, if you could really implement this Milton Friedman type voucher system in the spirit of deregulation and “going in the right direction”, if you could really get that cultural change required to make such a political revolution, then why would you go about in this route in the first place? You could just implement a gradual plan for deregulation and defunding of the system since you have this cultural shift in your favor.

Of course, the true reason for the vouchers is that you don’t have any such cultural shift and political support. You must trick your opposition, which is basically almost everyone, to go along with this alleged “brilliant” idea about bringing in more “choice” while keeping the State still in the game. The results then become very predictable.

62

Whether statist plans can be said to “fail” depends on the meaning used for that word. Many statist plans actually seem to succeed based on the actual goals held by their statist initiators.

I don’t agitate for vouchers - I agitate for the “cultural shift” that you refer to. Just so we’re clear on that.

But yes, the whole notion of vouchers is a means of co-option. “The right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing.” I see nothing inherently wrong with this when used against the state.

Finally, I’m still not sure what you’re referring to when you say “the results”, and you refuse to explain it to me, so I think we’re at an impasse.

63

I’m not a fan of vouchers either, but lets not act like private schools exist in this independent vacuum that is completely isolated from the hands of the state. Currently, most private schools are just public schools that you pay a lot of money to go to, and where you have to wear a uniform. The parents are going to be more concerned, and there will be more pressure, generally to get better grades, and do better on the SATs, plus the private schools can weed out the kids that don’t want or don’t belong there, much easier, but in terms of the style of teaching, the content, and the overall education structure, there isn’t a whole lot of difference.

64

“Well sorry, it is socialism”

That doesn’t counteract anything that I said. It makes it look like you’re trying to make a point that is less emotionally charged if you use the term “statist”. Under this definition total minarchists are socialists, well if that’s socialism then 'I think that the majority of people here aren’t all that against socialism.

“I’m trying to point that out and maybe get some people to question their fundament beliefs.”

Everyone here has questioned their fundamental beliefs, that’s why we are libertarians, this isn’t an issue that goes that far down.

“If socialism is government ownership of the means of production, then what is this massive entitlement program which guarantees every child with thousands of “free” dollars with which to spend on their education?”

It’s a statist program which is drafted on humanitarian and elitist ideals.

“how do you plan on rolling back this new enlistment program? After it’s created and each student is promised a $100,000 (or whatever it is) education by the government, how do you then undermine this ideology? The idea that the government “owes me something” is one of liberty’s biggest enemies; advocating state vouchers only encourages it.”

All of those things already exist, there is no new enlistment program, students are already promised money and an education by the government, and the welfare ideology is set in deep, this would not change anything specifically than making it more individualized. We could hope that his would help people understand that the market solution was the best solution, but even if this wasn’t achieved it would lead to a society with a better educational system and it would have positive economic and societal repercussions. The only way that society will ever drop compulsory public education is if there is a general shift against the state or the state itself collapses, the ideology will continue and no words about principle will change this. The difference is between robbing people and having them receive a bad service and robbing them and having them receive a bad service. The choice is not rob them or not.

“Vouchers will likely improve schools, but only temporarily. For example, one of the worst parts of the public school system is the teacher unions, which have supported tenure, guaranteed raises, and huge pensions and benefits.”

Vouchers would have to also increase the quality of schooling in the long run even with the teacher’s union because of the fact that this way schools would be able to deal with the teacher’s union as much as possible, or it’s possible that the teacher’s union could be destroyed altogether, especially if they were not ensured a specific employment base.

To DD5

The Rothbard article is fundamentally flawed because of the fact that it fails to take into account that all of the negative aspects are already in place except for the public students entering into private school, which is additionally flawed because of the fact that:

  1. Tuition for private students might be higher that what the public students are given

and

  1. Magnet schools and the like are already permitted to give certain requirements for entry, there is no reason why private schools would not be able to do exactly the same thing, so all of those who would bring down the quality of the private schools could be prohibited from entry

But all the negative things which Rothbard pointed out are already a reality, if you go to private school you still have to pay taxes for public schools, you have to pay for public schools whether your kid attends them or not, or even if you have a child. There is no major change, only choice, from everything which you have presented I don’t see why you are so ardently against the matter.

Also, the fact that markets would not work on vouchers is not a significant point, the whole market would not work if it were totally or majorly controlled by the government as the modern education system is, however it would work BETTER on a voucher system than on a totally state controlled system, I think that this is undeniable.

So if total freedom of education is not an option why would you resist vouchers?

65

“Right. Even the local food store is regulated by some level of government. But we don’t dare suggest to implement some sort of a voucher scheme for food stores.”

It is regulated, not controlled. The vast majority of the school system is directly controlled and not subject to competition, unlike the food stores which are mildly regulated and subject to competition.

"All statist plans fail. Now, if you could really implement this Milton Friedman type voucher system in the spirit of deregulation and “going in the right direction”, if you could really get that cultural change required to make such a political revolution, then why would you go about in this route in the first place? You could just implement a gradual plan for deregulation and defunding of the system since you have this cultural shift in your favor.

Of course, the true reason for the vouchers is that you don’t have any such cultural shift and political support. You must trick your opposition, which is basically almost everyone, to go along with this alleged “brilliant” idea about bringing in more “choice” while keeping the State still in the game. The results then become very predictable. "

Many conservatives have increasingly been in favor of vouchers and as the school system is falling apart it would be easier to help make happen.

The biggest point here is that vouchers are far, far more likely to happen than full freedom, and if libertarians had to choose it would be better for them to choose vouchers than the current system and it is also more practical for them to do so.

66

While there are problems with school choice, in my view it is better than what exists now by leaps and bounds. Right now, in most communities in the US, in order to send your child to private school you have to pay both the private school tuition and public school taxes. For most parents, the only option available to choose a better school is to move to a more expensive community.

Cities with entrenched teacher unions and (unelected) school administration have been losing residents en masse for years due to poorly performing urban schools. For many cities, this seems like the only viable way out of the trench that they’ve dug themselves into.