Should a staunch Libertarian sign up for umemployment?

Absolutely correct. Take what is “offered”, but don’t form a dependency on what you take. If you opt for the attitude, “well….I don’t believe in the State taking other people’s stuff so I shouldn’t take from the State….” I think you are unknowingly upholding statist actions in a backhanded way. Please don’t take that as a rebuke – that’s not how I mean it.

I’ve developed the practice of refraining from referring to “The State” as an entity. I try to say “government employees” or “state bureaucrats” or some other personal term. If I’m particularly grouchy I might use, “those smiling, waving criminals in the District of Collectivism…er, Columbia” or some other defamation.

My reasoning stems from the fact that you and I grew up thinking of The State or My Country as a loving, nurturing parent who deserves “our” undying respect and allegiance. Certainly you did if you attended government [“public”] schools. We pledged allegiances and put our hands over our hearts and sang national anthems and didn’t even notice socialistic gradualism overtake “our government”.

Most of us didn’t wind up on Mises until long after we came to see “something’s dreadfully WRONG with ‘our’ country”.

Governments don’t exist. People exist. Those folks who court the votes of boobus americus by smiling and kissing babies and waving to little old ladies. They have forced these “stimuli” upon us and bailed out their politically connected buddies and cohorts with counterfeit “funds” that will soon be reflected in sharply higher prices you will be paying for your raisin bran and beans down at the store – if the store can even remain open.

The more quickly “we” pull the economic rug out from under these thugs the sooner we will once again have an opportunity to be free.

Take the unemployment “insurance”. Amen.

Regards,

Samarami

The government does not have an “account” in the sense that it has an actual fund or lockbox full of real money. The government runs on a perpetual deficit. There is no stash of surplus tax money laying around anywhere. When the government is flat broke, the only way they can transfer a few thousand dollars for unemployment insurance to one citizen, is by taking it from another citizen, by some means or another. Unemployment insurance in the United States is funded by the Federal Unemployment Tax, which is a tax on employed workers that currently sits at 6.2%. Each individual state (“state” in the sub-national sense) has its own balance sheet in which they collect their own FUTA taxes and pay out unemployment benefits themselves. However, no individual state collects enough FUTA taxes to completely finance all the unemployment benefits they dole out. Rather, the states end up borrowing the rest of the funds from the federal government, which either hikes its federal tax rates (invades the property of 40% of Americans), or prints the money (invades the property of all Americans holding dollars), or borrows it (invades the property of future generations and of the taxpayers of the foreign country from whom the money is borrowed). Hence, for someone to cash an unemployment insurance check from the government, the government must increase its level of theft correspondingly.

One could indeed argue that by cashing the state unemployment insurance check, the OP is getting his stolen property back from the state, however, the only way the OP is getting his stolen property back from the state is if the state steals a correspondingly-sized amount of property from someone else.

If a common thief steals $100 from you and immediately spends it, and you hunt the thief down and demand your $100 back, and the thief tells you he can get you your $100 back but only if you give him a minute to go out and rob someone else first, you would be complicit in violating the property rights of someone else if you agreed to this solution.

It’s unfortunate and outrageous, yes, but cashing a state unemployment check is an act of property invasion no matter how you slice it.

your whole argument imagines that tax = spend, instantaneously. if you see someone get a government check, then some other place at the same instant a revenue collector grabs somones private property. this is absurd.

despite your proclamations, all sorts of government departments do have ‘accounts’ and money goes in and money goes out. furthermore there are plenty of property in government buildings/machines/uniforms/office supplies/land, that could be sold off. i.e where money could be sourced from without demanding instantaneous taxation. (though some time in the past there was taxation)

i will paraphrase you to make yout argument at least logically complete

kind of takes the umph out of it really.

perhaps;(i think its highly debateable, but even if we assume you are right) When you accept a government check you are not agreeing to the taxation solution. so its like this

a common thief steals $100 from you and immediately spends it, and you hunt the thief down and demand your $100 back, and the thief tells you its no big deal cause he’s in the habit of going out to rob people for whatever he wants; and you say, dont rob anyone for the 100$, liquidate your holdings or get a job, but whatever you do , give me my money back. you are not a criminal complicit with anything if you get your money back,.

No, my whole argument doesn’t imagine that tax=spend instantaneously. Of course, when a government runs on a perpetual deficit and they dole out an unemployment check they don’t have the money for, then obviously at some time in the future they’re going to have to appropriate someone else’s property to pay for it. My point is merely that the true level of government taxation is equal to government spending, and so, necessarily, demanding a check from a broke government for x amount of dollars is also to demand that said broke government steal x amount of dollars from someone else.

Some government offices may indeed have little piles of cash here and there, but the Federal Unemployment program does not. States don’t collect enough taxes to fund their unemployment programs. The federal government loans the states whatever they can’t cover. You’re right about there being plenty of assets the government could sell off to repay those from whom it has stolen, though.

I’m in total agreement with you here. That’s what the government ought to do.

If a common thief steals $100 from you and immediately spends it, and you hunt the thief down and demand your $100 back, and the thief tells you he can get you your $100 back but only if you give him a minute to go out and rob someone else, first, you would be complicit in violating the property rights of someone else if you agreed to this solution.

It’s unfortunate and outrageous, yes, but cashing a state unemployment check is an act of property invasion no matter how you slice it.

Sorry, Sir, but a thief is a thief is a thief is a thief.

The advantage we have with the “common thief” is that he (or she) doesn’t leave an 800 number “if you have any questions we’ll be glad to help” J (Yeah, with help like that who needs thievery???). The “common thief” asks for no pledges of allegiance.

The common thief doesn’t even want you to know who he is or where to look for him so you can “hunt him down and demand your $100 back”…

But most important of all, the common thief doesn’t attempt to lay a guilt trip upon you: “..Cashing a state unemployment check is an act of property invasion no matter how you slice it…” Yes, we libertarians don’t always agree, and we can slide back into progressive, intellectual blabber without batting an eye.

The thievery was accomplished long before your unemployment check came into fruition – and long before the collectivist criminals in Washington forced or cut a deal with your employer to “match” or “require” your “unemployment compensation” in order to let you have your severance pay.

So by saying all this and disagreeing with this poster please don’t infer I’m siding with “Unemployment Compensation ‘Insurance’ “. I’m not. Actually, its my personal opinion the real culprits (unknowing, but culprits nonetheless) are those who still insist upon “registering” with employees of civil government, then going down and “voting” – even for the Ron Paul’s of the world. That act gives ‘em the fuel to keep doin’ the things they do.

Take the “unemployment”. Don’t feel guilty. You ain’t stealing anything from me or invading any of my “property rights” I hadn’t already lost before I succeeded and became a sovereign state.

Regards, Samarami

Dear Ragnar,

Excuse me while I turn my collar around and play Fr. Gary. No guarantees since I never got beyond my Senior Religion Class in High School.

The morality issue depends on how dire your situation is. Generally speaking, taking a government subsidy is a form of stealing and immoral. In fact it is worse than stealing since it is corrupting the institution which is supposed to be protecting people from theft into an instrument of theft. But even St. Thomas Aquinas allowed stealing a loaf of bread if you are starving. In the modern interventionist mega-state it is often impossible to even survive without having to use improperly government-financed means.

After six years of intense job hunting during which our governor and legislature here in the “Peepuls Republick of Meesheegun” raised business taxes from 100% to 700% in only one case of gross irresponsibility and malfeasance, I finally broke down last month and applied for food stamps albeit not without feelings of guilt and hypocrisy. But there was no choice left. (Which should also alert you I am not a completely disinterested party.)

The fact is, for most people an education is ruled out in modern society without attending public schools and/or universities. Retirement is impossible without Social Security. Dealing with illness impossible without using Medicaid. Travel impossible without using government highways and airports. Or doing one’s natural duties without using the government water and sewage system. Even if you could find private means, you have been taxed so heavily you very likely lack the resources to obtain them.

That is why socialism and interventionism are so fundamentally evil: it makes thieves of us all–whether willing or not.

So, if you think you can get along without it, by all means do. But if you can’t, don’t kill yourself with guilt. Just work (and pray) for reform.

The one good thing about the Obama misadministration is that it is re-uniting the disperate parts of the libertarian-conservative-“religious right” coalition that had fallen into lethargy and squabbling since the beginning of the Reagan administration. It seemed once Reagan was elected, everyone in the movement took the attitude, “Reform and restoration has begun. There can only be improvement from now on.” We all ought to have known better. As Albert Jay Nock said, “There is no such thing as a lost cause because there is no such thing as a won cause.” The leftists being clever at power games even if stupid on economics, just waited for the right opportunities. But we can play the same game and better. But we have to start grappling with our most fundamental tactical problem communications. Press, pulpit, and pedagogy are controlled by the left. So our most important efforts as a movement must be in communication–happily happening in the blogs–and discrediting the leftist priests, ministers, reporters, and teachers at every turn.

Back to moral issues, we must fight the silly moral paradigm of selfish-unselfish. This is the fundamental moral paradigm of the left and meshes well with their inability to understand the notions of harmony of peaceful self-interest and spontaneous social order as it gives justification to obedience to the “Great Noble Holy Perfect Leader” who is supposed to somehow have a charism of wisdom and virtue giving him the right to rule all people in all things. And whom, of course, they must obey for to use you own judgment is selfish.

In reality the selfish-unselfish paradigm begs every substantive moral question.

To the leftist (as I found out from no less a teacher than Dr. Benjamin Spock) whatever advances “progress” viz. socialism, is moral, whatever does not is immoral. That is, whatever advances the absolute rule of the self-proclaimed Great Noble Holy Perfect Leader is moral and whatever is against it is selfish and, therefore, immoral. In the case of Spock’s lecture (the date is easy to remember, my 21st birthday, April 22, 1971) the efforts (whether wrongheaded or not) by the U.S. to help the South Vietnamese defend themselves was immoral since it was against a “progressive” regime, while the deliberate tortures and murders carried out first by the Viet Cong and then by the North Vietnamese Army were moral. For example the deliberate murders of everyone in Duc duc village. Hanging the pregnat wives of villagers who didn’t cooperate with the communists by the hands and arms while cutting out the baby–before finally killing the woman. And all the other kindly, gentle, and compassionate things communists are noted for. Dr. Spock decried the immorality of the violence of the military efforts by the U.S. and South Vietnamese to defend against the Communists while bragging about his role in organizing a protest at Harvard in such a way it resulted in violence.

This relativistic morality must be rejected by the libertarian and anyone with any sense of the objective nature of reality and truth. “Truth is,” as St. Thomas Aquinas said, “the adequacy with which the intellect perceives the thing.” (Adequatio rei et intellectus.) Thus there are and must be objective moral rules as there are objective moral consequences. The chief and most fundamental example being the Ten Commandments.

Even though they should be applied with reason, mercy, and a proper sense of balance and proportion, nonetheless, they are the objective rules because choice and acts have objective consequences. Ignorance or unfortunate circumstances can mitigate the guilt but not the harm.

I hope this helps. Best wishes.

Sincerely,

Gary J. Mallast

That’s like asking whether you should try to get out of a speeding ticket or not. Its not the state’s money and the sooner is it seperated from it the better.

I had the opportunity to claim unemployment.

I passed on it.

To each his own.

Unemployment is not exactly an opportunity.

I had an opportunity to claim “employment insurance”.

if someone is offering you some pieces of paper, which also happen to have some purchasing power, then take it.

Why not?

Dude…

You paid for it without your consent, so therefore it was stole from you, this would be in my opinion restitution…

It is like saying that you will not accept your tax return at the end of the year…

It’s not restitution. Restitution would be justice. It would be an end to the theft.

All this is saying, is that the government can steal, and when you can, you will take what they offer you back. You’re not taking anything they are not offering. It’s like if you caught a mugger and he offered to split his loot if you let him go. By accepting that, you acknowledge that half of the loot belongs to him.

To me (others may differ) this is no different than voting. It is an endorsement of a system you do not believe in.

There is only one way I know that stops that entirely…

I think that is a fair assessment…