Sick child argument?

So you do have a standard of morality outside of what is determined by the contents of a contract?

You’re half right on all this. Morals are not some kind of entities that exist independently of human consciousness, they’re not some entries in a cosmic book written somewhere, they’re concepts created by people.

Where you get it wrong is that those concepts are arbitrary, and arise only from agreement, or tradition, or societal conditioning. They’re observations of the standards of behavior that lead to the things human beings value. They are determined by the real universe, and by the nature of human beings and of consciousness

To put it another way, they fall under praxeology.

-Jon

Hey jon, not to derail the argument at all, but I had a comment on asking the atheist to prove the non existence of god. Its essentially impossible to prove a negative except by trying every state that can exist and showing its not in any of those almost infinite states. The default position is disbelief. Such as not believing in unicorns unless someone proves they do exist. Its not my job to show that there are no unicorns, by looking at every horse on earth. I just take the default position with gods as well, disbelief.

Yep, speaking as a theist, I didn’t take the earlier comment on atheism as an ad hominem equating X with atheism at all.

–Len

Arrrgghhh! Trying… not… to… derail… arrggghhh!

I wouldn’t be so sure:

Source.

Arguments for a deity or free will are ontological. They do not rest on observables. One must dispose of these if one is to disprove either. It is not as simple as “there’s no evidence!” given that one is not dealing with observables. Moral reasoning cannot even be taken as analogous, though, as it must be given a praxeological analysis and thus all that it requires is some ontological commitment or other that allows for realism.

-Jon

Yeah, tell me about it.

I was about to make the argument Jon just presented, in my own words, but I deleted it. I guess the horse is out of the barn now…

Hm interesting article. I think the crux was that statement “You can’t prove a negative” is actually a negative, making it self detonating. So let me rephrase my comment based on what that article illuminated. So an atheist could be asked to prove that god doesn’t exist its just not fair, the theist claim is more extraordinary, therefore the onus is on him. I don’t feel there is a middle ground between belief and disbelief, if you want to see which you are then perform an action that is dependant on one or the other, if forced to pick, you will pick.

Granted, but my point is that the type of proof will not be observational, but it will have to be ontological arguments (Kant himself noted something to this effect where he advanced that only transcendental arguments can be given for freedom of the will, a deity &c.) and that these will have to be dealt with by anyone wanting to disprove a deity conclusively. I’m not a theist (I’m considering deism though), but I think a lot of atheists underestimate what they’re up against.

-Jon

If you are a defensive athiest, that is, an athiest who is actually a sort of depreciating agnostic (we can’t prove unicorns don’t exist either, and we can’t know how the universe was created), then the burden of proof is on you to show that these things cannot be known. Many people from both the atheist and theist sides claim they can be and are known, so why are they wrong? However, if you do take a position on how the universe came about without God, or claim that you know that God does not exist, these are positive claims that require proof. I, for one, do not consider it any less extraordinary to claim that the universe came about by chance or… something, than that a mind was required to create an ordered universe.

So, which is it? And, while this post does not help, why don’t you, if you want to have this discussion, make your own thread for it, instead of derailing this one?

Well I will end this derail by just answering your question. which is it? Its disbelief by default. cough stealing is always wrong, there we are back on track.

In the interests of derailing this thread even further, here’s an amusing (some would say offensive) quote from a recent science fiction novel, The Philosopher’s Apprentice by James Morrow:

He was going to, but then some jerk named Geoffrey decided he couldn’t resist taking a jab and he decided we weren’t worth it. Thanks.

Hmm I should’ve just pointed out that it was a poor analogy and left it at that. [:P]

-Jon

If a government thug is using his own, personal, justly bought with just money gun to oppress people, it it wrong to steal or vandalize that gun while he’s sleeping?

Hey Jon I think geoffery’s quote might be an argument related to ontology.

Hey… Come on. Is he really that hypersensitive? ;o)

I would say you don’t have a claim to the thugs gun, but only to your own defense. So rendering his gun inoperable when its clear he is oppressing you would be moral. Not taking it and making it your own. Just my gut reaction here.

Related to ontology, how? At best it is a presumption against highly anthropocentric notions of a deity.

-Jon

What if he was oppressing someone else, but you had the opportunity to take the gun so he couldn’t use it? How you use or don’t use it afterwards is irrelevant.