Some Dumb Questions :P

Well, Person B is free to waste his money on trivial lawsuits if he likes (though he may be liable for Person A’s defense costs if the lawsuit turns out to have been trivial). My only point is that if Person B takes summary justice, there is nothing inherently bad or wrong or criminal about that and should not be “prohibited” or otherwise sanctioned… but Person B had better be able to justify his actions in court when Person A’s family or friends take him to court for murder. In the modern legal order, summary justice is only justifiable “in the heat of the moment” that is, while actively defending oneself from an ongoing threat. However, I think this leads to clearly absurd consequences.

Let’s say John Crook (lets use names instead of "Person X/Person Z… too confusing) breaks into my house when I’m not home. I walk through the door just as he’s about to plunge a knife into my wife. Fortunately, I’m armed, so I draw and shoot, killing John Crook. Now, let’s say I pulled into my driveway 10 seconds later and walk through the door to find John Crook pulling the knife out of my wife’s dead, stabbed body. The very same action (shooting him) is now illegal because it would be “revenge.” But how is revenge any more wrong than defense?? John Crook certainly deserves to die irrespective of whether my wife has been stabbed or not. The evidence I need to defend my actions is right there… the knife with John Crook’s fingerprints, John Crook’s presence in my house, my dead, stabbed wife, and so on. If John Crook’s mother than sues me for murdering her son, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Sure, there’s not CCTV footage of the incident but the evidence that I committed justifiable homicide meets any reasonable standard of evidence. I think the modern idea that any sort of retaliation or revenge is inherently criminal is a by-product of the State’s monopolization of retaliation and punishment.

It’s no different today and this is as it ought to be. If you can’t prove your case, then retaliation cannot be justifiable. You can know with certainty that someone committed a crime (perhaps they left a clue to taunt you with something only you could know but could never present as evidence to others) yet not be able to justify retaliating against them. In this situation, you may not lawfully retaliate.

Well, outlawry is reserved for only those crimes or offenses that are so extreme that no lawful form of restitution/punishment can be identified. If you dent someone’s car, you can pay a certain dollar amount to have it fixed and maybe something else on top for the trouble. But if you kill someone, what restitution can be made, you can’t bring the person back to life… what form of lawful punishment will satisfy the victim’s relatives demand for retaliation?? I don’t think there is any appropriate punishment so the only just answer is outlawry. After this, the victim’s relatives are no longer shackled by the legal consequences of anything that happens to you since there aren’t any.

Most disputes are resolved by the parties themselves, even in a Statist order. Every time you bump into someone walking down the sidewalk and say “excuse me” you’ve just smoothed over a potential dispute without any recourse to an “established legal system”. People work out almost all their disputes without going to court. So why should a dispute that is so thorny as to require a third-party be any different? It’s still just a dispute between two people and the purpose of the third-party is to help them resolve their dispute between themselves, not to impose a decision on them. State courts make “judgments” and “decrees” after putting people through “trials.” This is very religious terminology when you think about it. Have you ever read the Revelation of St. John? Most of the imagery of modern Western court systems comes straight from that book.

Rev. 20:11-15

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is very much the feeling that modern courts try to evoke in those who are forced to appear before them.

Duels were once an accepted and ordinary part of the system of dispute resolution. Let’s say I bump into you on the sidewalk. We’re both tough, young testosteronal jocks. I refuse to say “excuse me” and you get all up in my face about it. Next thing you know, we decide to settle it through a boxing match. So be it. Whoever loses the match was in the wrong and has to pay up. It’s up to the parties to the dispute to decide how they want to resolve their dispute. So long as both parties freely assent to a particular method of dispute-resolution, what business is it of anyone else’s?

Clayton -

I am almost bought; I just have two issues and one question, one being the issue of non-proportional retribution by vigilantes against outlaws (who are no longer protected by the law). For instance, what happens if say I get into a drunken row with a friend, kill him (acting on the spur of the moment), then I am outlawed by my insurance company but the punishment of my victim is non-proportional to the offence committed, lets say his family get hold of me and torture me? Would not lethal injection/death by hanging be more proportional to the offence originally committed? Should not retribution then be sought against this family for punishing me in a non-proportional manner?

The other issue is the case of the murdered homeless guy who has no relatives or friends and no insurance scheme to protect him.

And my question is; do you believe in diminished responsibility - for instance the man that is drunk, high on drugs, severely autistic, etc. (this is no trick question; I do not mind which way you answer).

EDIT: I just thought of one more thing. In duels, do the two parties have to have a witness or sign a contract to consent that they are, in fact, engaging in a duel and it is not just one party attacking (and killing) the other party?

No. It would improve prison conditions for a lot of prisoners who get beaten up, urinated on, bullied, intimidated and raped in the showers. They could sell their goods on the open market, use money, trade with other prisoners and pay for better security, single cells, private shower cubicals, etc. Well behaved prisoners would go to more secure units. So don’t play that game. State run prisons are a nightmare.

And again, you have given me no real alternative to prison (possibly because none exist).

There are plenty of alternatives to prison. I have offered some. If you missed it, that’s not my business.

But my point about the terrible prisons in the USSR was entirely unrelated to anything you had to say.

Yeah, this is a pretty tough issue. There’s two ways I can think of to go about dealing with this. First, an outlaw decision is only a recommendation from an adjudicator so that recommendation itself is always open to subsequent legal challenge. Unconscionable acts toward an outlaw might make it more likely that the family attempts to claim the outlawed should not have been outlawed at all (making his treatment a legal matter). Second, a broader “human decency” argument might be made to the effect that even though the outlaw was not protected by law per se, the manner of his treatment was so odious as to constitute its own tort against his family/friends/whoever.

I know Rothbard would reel in horror at this sort of argument since it entails an appeal to the subjective (grief) and he, I believe correctly, rejects the idea of “subjective torts.” Nevertheless, we consider a threat against someone to be a genuine tort even though no property has been damaged or violated. I believe this because threats put property at risk. Risks are themselves a kind of cost and people pay to get rid of risks (for example, by purchasing insurance). If someone imposes a risk onto you, they are imposing a cost onto you without your consent. Perhaps the outlaw’s family could argue that the torture of the outlaw can be reasonably be interpreted as a kind of threat against them. His treatment was so odious as to constitute a kind of indirect threat… “Watch out, we’re coming for you next.”

I think the poor and homeless would be better protected under private law for the same reason private transport or private restrooms are so much more pleasant than the public versions. If you look at the facts, the poor and homeless really get the shaft in our public law system. How is having a public prosecutor go after an innocent homeless guy because he’s vulnerable and can’t afford anything other than a court-appointed attorney any better than a homeless man being unable to afford a lawyer of any kind in a private law system where no one will go to the bother of suing him unless he harms them if for no other reason than that there is nothing to be gained from suing a pauper?

No. In private law, all that matters are the facts of what happened. Mental states are irrelevant (this follows from Rothbard’s rejection of subjective torts). If you crashed into my car because you were drunk, stupid, insane, distracted… makes no difference. All that matters is that you are the one who crashed into my car so you are the one who is responsible for making it right.

I think this was common practice when duels were legal… I don’t know if there had to be a contract but I know there had to be a witness and certain rules had to be observed for the duel to count as a duel and not homicide.

Clayton -

It doesn’t matter - my only point is that both the Fed and the US government are symptoms of the same underlying problem - the Power Elite. So, it’s a false dichotomy to get into this “private” versus “public” debate since it’s the same power on behalf of which they are acting, whether in a nominally private or nominally public capacity. It’s like the CIA/DoD contractors… what difference does it make that they’re “private”? It’s just a word game. Same with the Fed. And the Fed’s disinfo agents agitate on the issue of whether the Fed is private or public in order to distract from the Power Elites behind both the Fed and the US government. They’d much rather the sheeple debate whether the Fed is public or private than support a measure to audit the Fed’s transactions with foreign institutions.

Clayton -

Here’s the reality of government prisons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4_uvvcaDqw

Clayton -

Right.

These are the posts you directed at me (or rather, attacked me with):

Hmm. No alternative here.

Ah. Nothing here either.

You vaguely pointed someone else in the direction of ‘the prison abolition movement’ (so not me). Well I need something with a tiny bit more substance to it than just a reference elsewhere. I will read into it by all means. But I require you to at least give me some points which I can actually respond to. ‘Here is a book, I want you to critique it’ is not a fair argument (or an argument at all). This is fairly basic debating technique. You have to talk about the citations you have referenced instead of just pointing me to a wikipedia article. Otherwise you have given me no points to which I can respond to. In fact I get the feeling you are doing this on purpose to ‘trap’ me whilst simultaneously making arguments from morality like ‘profits are greedy and evil’. Well I don’t appreciate it. It is a very poor standard of debate, in fact.

Also, for me to respond to your post, I require you to drop the ad homs. Otherwise, if you don’t do this, this is the last post I am making in response to you. I have noticed the way you debate with others on this forum, eg, A.G.B./Drewie Brando and Filc and quite frankly I am not impressed. I believe it was Benjamin Tucker who stated that socialism was like Christianity in that the worst detractors from Christianity are the Christians themselves.

And I’ll just point everyone back to what you said here:

No, of course rapists and murderers are lovely people who are just misunderstood and merely need a bit of help (i.e. a bullet in the back of the head).

These are the posts you directed at me…

You vaguely pointed someone else in the direction of ‘the prison abolition movement’ (so not me

So you knew I referenced alternatives?

… argh…

I have to do no such thing. I will gladly “subsidize your intelligence” (as it was put to me, once) but I didn’t really want to detract the thread too far, other than to say for-profit prisons are no better than state subsidized prisons… they’re still prisons.

No, of course rapists and murderers are lovely people who are just misunderstood and merely need a bit of help (i.e. a bullet in the back of the head).

Is this facetious, or…?

Either way, this doesn’t detract from the fact that there are far better alternatives to deviant behavior than prisons, debtor’s prisons, indentured servitude or bullets in the head.

@ Clayton

I know. It’s disgusting, right?

Are you suggesting that if the same thing was happening, but it was for a profit on the open market, it would be any better?

You didn’t do what I asked which was to provide a point I could reply to but ah well.

I have reconsidered my opinion and I advocate something virtually identical to what Clayton has proposed.

From the wikipedia article you referenced;

  • Abolition of specific programs which increase prison population, such as the prohibition of drugs (e.g. War on Drugs), gun control, prohibition of prostitution, and alcohol restrictions.

I agree with this.

  • Fighting individual cases of wrongful conviction

And this.

  • Decreasing terms of imprisonment by abolishing mandatory minimum sentencing

Agree with this since petty offenses do not warrant imprisonment.

  • Penal system reforms:
    • Substituting incarceration with supervised release, probation, restitution to victims, or community work
  • Crime prevention rather than punishment

All of this is thoroughly utilitarian and does not hold the individual accountable for his actions. There is no retribution for the victim and no moral consistancy. Furthermore, when the individual is not accountable for his actions he considers the risks far too lightly.

  • Education programs to inform people who have never been in prison about the problems

Why so you can indoctrinate us into agreeing with your beliefs?

  • Decreasing ethnic disparity in prison populations
  • Prison condition reforms

I thought you were opposed to prisons?

I have since changed my mind. But all you did was to offer red herrings, irritate me and offer no coherent alternatives. I’ve noticed a tendency in your posts to use red herrings quite frequently. If it is some sort of game, I do not appreciate it, not with me anyway.

Agreed.

If someone killed, raped or tortured me or a family member that is what I would want for them. I would not deny similar rights to other individuals.

Killing a violent offender also means a zero percent reoffence rate. If you read Clayton’s posts you will see that this form of retribution is highly consistent. I also recommend you read this: http://mises.org/daily/4468 and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer

He is not suggesting that at all. And I still obtain that, whilst it is unethical to detain a body against their will, a free market prison would be superior over a state prison though I endorse neither.

Interesting. I would rather get money from them than kill them personally. Killing them doesn’t bring back my family, nor does the money. However, the money increases my quality of life while killing them has no effect on the quality of my life.

Of course not! But if a private individual were operating some sort of detention facility*, there would be the possibility of legal liability for such horrific torture occuring in his facility. Try suing the state of Alabama on the basis of Mr. Mendenhall’s story… good luck. I read about a man who was raped by a prison guard and he managed to alert the staff and get them to do a “sting” and catch the guard attempting it a second time and he brought a successful lawsuit against the state in which this occurred (FL, I think). But this was an exceptional case and these things are rarely, if ever, handled through the legal system. And, as the movie says, 1 in 5 out of 2 million prisoners (that’s 400,000 people) are sexually assaulted in prison and most victims are the “softcore” offenders who were guilty of simple dug possession or other minor offenses. These individuals are subjected to this sort of sexual torture precisely because the State is virtually immune from any legal liability for what happens in its prisons.

Clayton -

*I doubt very much there would be “prisons” as we understand them in a private law society though there might be a limited market for lockups for individuals who are being lawfully detained.

You get to take a monetary compensation and to kill them. It is a good thing to seek proper retribution (effectively death penalisation) against a violent offender since there is a zero reoffense rate and no new loss of life.

Clearly, you do not have children.

Clayton -

Interesting. I would rather get money from them than kill them personally. Killing them doesn’t bring back my family, nor does the money. However, the money increases my quality of life while killing them has no effect on the quality of my life.

Oh lol, that sounds amazingly funny. Considering all this talk about murder which all of a sudden leads to Just give me the money!!!

Presumably you only think these individuals should be detained whilst going through trial? Or else you do propose imprisonment in which case this is starting to get confusing, lol.

Argh!! You keep changing your name! So confusing phew.

If someone killed, raped or tortured me or a family member that is what I would want for them. I would not deny similar rights to other individuals.

Killing a violent offender also means a zero percent reoffence rate. If you read Clayton’s posts you will see that this form of retribution is highly consistent. I also recommend you read this: http://mises.org/daily/4468 and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer

I have my doubts that this sentiment will be the same when the shoe is on the other foot… I know, “no compassion for criminals” and all that.

But either way, is this the same for crimes of passion as it is for calculated intent? What about the chance of wrongful accusation you were worried about not but 3 pages ago?

I thought you were opposed to prisons?

I don’t know why you would think I have to agree with everything in an article cited? Are you that much of an ideologue? Why would you think I am?

Why so you can indoctrinate us into agreeing with your beliefs?

Yes, I want to use voodoo and mind control to convince you that rape and murder are bad

All of this is thoroughly utilitarian and does not hold the individual accountable for his actions. There is no retribution for the victim and no moral consistancy. Furthermore, when the individual is not accountable for his actions he considers the risks far too lightly.

Yawn… you have any empirical verification for that… or do you just “feel it, in your heart.”

He is not suggesting that at all. And I still obtain that, whilst it is unethical to detain a body against their will, a free market prison would be superior over a state prison though I endorse neither.

Well, I think something can be for profit and just as bad, if not worse than a state run anything. The real issue is the actors involved and the rules governing it.

Perhaps it is not me, but you who should read Clayton’s posts; specifically the one about the intent of power and the insidious nature of tyranny.

A dead person can’t make money. A living person forced to work to pay off their debt results in more money to me than if they were dead and I only got what they had at the time of their execution.

This has no bearing on the topic of discussion. Besides, there are plenty of people who have children and believe that vengence/revenge is pointless. As I said, killing them doesn’t bring back your dead child and neither does money. However, one increase the quality of your life while the other does not. What is there to gain from killing them (for you, not society)?

Execution costs money too, depending on how you are planning it. The electric chair certainly consumes alot of electricity and thatès $$$$. Money is a better solution.

But then again, if the individual is a psycho, you choose to let him free so that he can work to pay off his debt.Mind you, this feloow already killed your family. Do you really think he is not going to come after you ?He is probably more pissed off now since he got caught and forced to pay.

Who knows what is in his mind ‘’ This bastard, he catches me killing his wife and now he wants me to pay him?".