The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism

I will cover parts of your post that others did not address. You also forgot to tell me what your primary language is.

They are actually both the same (from a Rothbardian point of view), and they both have existed in “quasi states”, which you must at least credit, where the state as we know it, did not exist.

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Of course you did! Nozick does not argue for anarchy!!! I haven’t even read that book and I am aware of that. Try reading myth of national defense. It consists of many authors. And you can read it online, without payment and “breaking” any laws.

That is prohibiting. Watch this.

From now all we should restrict access to this thread from all forum posters who do not reside in the nordic countries. That is a restriction and prohibition of all posters who do not reside in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and Finland (and all their territories).

From now on, only posters who reside in Sweden should be restricted/prohibited from posting.

Now in the second rule, it is less restrictive then the first. But they are both still examples of prohibition. Less restriction is still prohibition, and whilst it does not create as many negative effects is STILL prohibition.

As you see from the above I do. And what evidence do you point to restriction working? It simply does not suck as much as total prohibition of all drugs or immigrants does.

Well then it fulfills the definition of quip in the sense that what you wrote is strange since it defies history. All schools of thought have those who are dogmatic. However, because the Austrian school is based on principles, which are derived from logic, we are Dogmatic. It does not afford the same degree of movement and flexibility that empirical evidence does, as other posters have tried very hard to show you.

Maybe some do, and once again remember that calculation does not = econometrics. Econometrics differs from other methods of statistical analysis.

Well that is all a misinterpretation especially of the U.S. because that hasn’t happened.

It has evolved, but it evolves in the sense that it builds on earlier principles that either you don’t understand or don’t want to understand. If it ceased to build on those principles it ceases to be any form of Austrian economics.

My native language is one of the Scandinavian ones; however I’m not an ethnic Scandinavian.

I have difficulty discussing topics that have different meanings of words than from ordinary logic and reason. If you need to follow a certain dogma or orthodoxy then discussion becomes meaningless for those outside. To me it’s like debating about whether the earth is flat or not. Debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. I was educated and trained in law and economics so for me logic and reason was core required skill sets. I understand the need to clarify the meaning of words but in no logical interpretation can restriction=prohibition unless it’s dogma.

Further everything is a continuum; nothing is static, not even Austrian Economics. For it to be static there has to be truths that are unchangeable and eternal. There are none! (Unless you believe in metaphysical concepts such as God and/or absolute morals! The existence of God and absolute morals cannot be proven or disproven. That discussion on metaphysics should therefore take place at a theological seminary/ philosophy class, not in a discussion on Economics.)

In Macro Economics there is no eternal truths only temporary knowledge. Macro Economy and Austrian Economics is not science it’s only a way to describe the world. I dislike Keynesianism, Marxism and the later Chicago School that tried to find a grand all encompassing theory. It is doomed to fail. Human interaction is to complex and that is why came to Austrian Economics. It seemed to me to hold the most rational and logical explanations as well as it seemed to be based on the science of human behavior, Behaviorism. It also dealt more on the Micro level and all but dismissed Macro.

Kenneth Rogoff and Greg Mankiw are two leading US economists that are neo-Keynesians that synthesize Austrian and Chicago School with Keynesian theory if I understand it correctly. Below read about Rogoffs new book as well as a new book about the problems with the Chicago School.

Anarchy and a total free market have existed? Where and when? Nozick didn’t argue for Anarchy he dissected different forms of societies. It was in fact from his discussions that I came to the conclusion that anarchy and the absolute free market were pure theoretical and philosophical constructs.

I agree that from a theoretical standpoint there will be no shortage of work if people are willing to accept any wages but it’s like Peak Oil, oil will never run out because the last barrel will cost trillions of dollars. My arguments in the discussion are from the fact that the welfare state is here to stay and is huge. I also argue from the point that there already is massive state intervention in immigration, from a point of Status Quo i.e. a Keynesian situation. Austrian Economics have very little to say about that other than from a theoretical perspective. We disagree on the need for restriction on unskilled immigration.

I argue in reality, what is, and you argue from an Ivory Tower position of theoretical and philosophy perspective i.e. what ought to be. Let’s agree to disagree and end this discussion.

  1. New book “This Time it is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly” By Carmen M. Reinhart and Kenneth S. Rogoff reviewed in The American Interest November/December issue 2009 by Harold James in the article ”Recession Regression”.

”One of the fallouts of the global financial crisis, especially after the collapse of Lehman Brothers in September 2008, has been the questioning of the credibility of much of what passes for economic science, whether delivered by the mathematical adepts of sophisticated financial modeling in the business world or by academia.

This kind of economics promised a rational world of ever-increasing prosperity and stability. It was rather dismissive of economic history, which was cast off as an obsolete discipline based on old-fashioned, low-technology techniques. The only value economists saw in history was as a mine for microeconomic data that could be fed into complex mathematical models. By contrast, economic history (which is often rather gloomy) now looks rather more interesting and important. Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff have delivered a powerful and eloquent statement explaining why. ”

In the same issue M. Davidson author writes about his coming book ”Reality be Damned: The Legacy of Cicago School of Economics” about the danger of Great Ideas in Macro Economy such as Marxism, Keynsianism and later day Chicago School. The book is to be printed in 2010 and its name is ”Chicago Economics and the Origin of the Financial Crisis”

The Chicago School’s basic assumptions about human nature and the intersection of economic and political life were not doctrinaire at the start, and they may have been in that day a useful warning against then-fashionable tendencies toward planned economies, the hubris of social engineering and assumptions of ultimate convergence between socialist and capitalist economies. But ironically, as economics asserted itself as an independent science, divorced from its partner, political philosophy, it became more politically entangled than ever. Modern politicians searched for the expertise necessary to manage a changing modern economy in the Chicago School and found an empty closet. Once it abandoned its political concerns with economic power, Chicago theory, with its axioms of profit maximization, perfect information and self-correcting markets, had no advice to limit the downside risks of economic and financial disaster. The fruitful blending of social and economic concerns pioneered by Simons may not be suitable to a modern economy, but his concern about the dangers of centralizing economic power remains an issue that is ignored by the Chicago School. Doctrine supplanted healthy intellectual doubt, theoretical purity trumped common sense and historical memory, acolytes took over from masters, and a different kind of irrational exuberance was the result. We’re all now paying the price.

Just found this qoute :

“Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints” - Ludwig von Mises

Gotta love Mises. LOL [Y][:)]

pessimism - the shedding of ones own inabilities upon others

Contemporary ancaps don’t argue that ancap will rid the world of evil men. We advocate marketizing security.

Read https://forum.freecapitalists.org/t/mises-and-the-production-of-security/9039/8

But there are constants. Unless evolution says other wise human action is purposeful. Refuting praxeology cannot be done while staying logically consistent and not falling subject to a particular logical fallacy. You can choose to not believe this and continue to be in a state of ignorance, and be ‘awed’ but this ignorance but your opinion doesn’t discredit our argument at all.

This seems to show you haven’t done as much reading on Austrian economics as you previously stated. We don’t necessarily make a distinction between macro and micro other than making a distinction between big and large. The principles are the same. Multiplying 2 times 100 is the same as multiplying 2 times 1. You still get double, though the quantities may differ.

We do though. The difference is our ‘all encompassing theories’ are logically consistent, unlike all the other schools of thought that you mentioned where empiricism runs rampant and manipulates their ideological thoughts at whim.

Arguing to Ignorance

https://forum.freecapitalists.org/blogs/brainpolice/archive/2008/10/09/avoiding-the-argument-from-history-and-normality.aspx

The fact that you can buy a magazine on the way to work and that fresh milk magicallty appears at the grocery store every morning is a legitimate example that anarchy works. More so the fact that the market is fundamentally the economic root of all prosperity on earth. You have to prove to us that removing the market would net greater prosperity. Untill then all the evidence you need is around you. The cloths you wear, the food you eat, your entertainment, your work are all examples of anarchy working.

It’s essentially irrefutable unless you reject the market like some schools of thought do. Markets are anarchy by default.

In the 19th century slavery was globally accepted for a time. Your argument in their context would have essentially equated to this. Since slavery has always been and we see no examples of it not beeing, therefore we should just submit unto it’s existence as somehow being justified. We shouldn’t make a concious effort to raise awareness of it’s contridictions.

You essentially reject the fact that man can improve and would prefer to take the status-quo route since thats all you know. Had we been in the 19th century you may be here arguing against doing away with slavery.

On the contrary. You still show that you lack much reading regarding praxeology.

Praxeology seems to be an economist/philosopher trying to be a behavior psychologist. Economists are notoriously for trying to be psychologists. Economic behavior is behavior but still human behavior and best explained by the science of human behavior, Skinners Behaviorism. If you want to see how seriously wrong economists can go when they try to be psychologist just look upon the newfangled discipline of “Behavioral Economics” an attempt to reintroduce old school Keynesianism and/or central planning in form of the Enlightened Choice Architect. Nearly pseudo science!

Praxeology is a start to explain human economic behavior but it is a rudimentary explanation compared to Skinners Behaviorism (Radical Behaviorism). As far as I know it Hayek’s praxeology has not been upheld in psychological research on human behavior. It’s a very useful tool to start with and that was my main reason to start looking to Austrian Economics. I saw it as a rudimentary for of the science of human behavior. You might compare Mises/Hayek to Freud. Maybe a more easy to understand comparison is astrology to astronomy or alchemy to chemistry. The other reason was that Austrian Economics started out with individual behavior that then could be multiplied. It didn’t do top down.

My argument is not against praxeology but against the use of metaphysical concepts such as absolute morality in economic debate. We can never know the origins of morality only see the status it has today. However we are just as we speak starting to find out the origins of morality through genetic research, neuroscience, neuro- and evolutionary psychology. Soon we will be able to find in our genes and brains if there is such thing as constant morality. But until then the vote is out.

Apparently when it comes to anarchy and anarcho-capitalism we are talking at cross purposes. I’m talking about a society and economy totally based on anarchy and anarcho-capitalism. You are talking about economic microcosms such as newspaper delivery. What has the abolishment of slavery to do with the abolishment of the total structure of society? Slavery was a miniscule part of the states use of force. It was disgraceful but still an anomaly.

Correction:

The second reason I started looking into Austrian Economics was that the started by the individual and built from there, not top down.

The comparision is between praxeaology and the scince of human behavior, Behaviorism.

no!

Praxeology is not phsychiatry or behavioralism. Praxeology does not seek to manipulate human behavior or to address which human behavior is ‘wrong’ and ‘right’. Unlike the mysticism commony practice in today’s pharmaceutical industry.

Praxeology is not concerned with these things. it is not concerned if someone is delusional ect… At some point you’ll stop exhausting us with these arguments and go look it up. =p

Ancaps will often use ethics or morals to defend their viewpoint, but there is also an economic argument that is pro ancap as well. This is where Austrian Economics enters. Accepting the market works is essentially accepting that anarchy works.

The utilitarian view however is that whatever is most economical is somehow morally justified. This is not the angle of ancaps. We do not argue the sacrifice of one to save a million. Their ethical arguments are developed differently.

But I wouldn’t recommend getting into the ethics or moral debate with them, you won’t win.

Originally y our argument was a supportive argument for welfarism based on an traditionalist ideology. Now it seems to have changed, in fact you almost seem like a different person posting. Still I’d like to point out that a newspaper delivery service is another example of anarchy working. The fact that you ignore this inconvenient fact is your misfortune.

it was an analogy showing how your line of reasoning was faulty. You apparently missed it. My point was that arguing from tradition is a fallacy.

Medical industry should be pharmaceutical industry. Can’t edit…

Which one? Doesn’t really make a difference since they all read the same.

Did you get someone else to write this post? I don’t mean this in a hostile manner but they way in which it is written is different, and so is the attention to spelling.

What words are you talking about?

That depends. The burden of proof is for you to prove praxeology or Austrian economics wrong. Which is quite silly since what you supposedly believe is Austrian Economics.

Really? This is why I bring up the language thing.

Prohibition is a synonym of restriction. http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/prohibition

Also, if you disagree with that, check out their definitions.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prohibition

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/restriction

Thats all I can handle right now.

100 % restriction is equal to prohibition but partial restriction is not prohibition according to logic and even by common daily use.

That is why i asked you yours and/or the Asustrian definition of restriction. So are you defining any restriction as prohibition or only 100 % restriction as prohibition? Or is it so defined by Hayek, Mises or by other Austrian scholars?

I can recommend the Science and Math search engine WolframAlpha. Wikipedia is good but sometimes inconsistent and facts can be sketchy.

From Scientific search engine www.WolframAlpha.com

Prohibition

action | the action of prohibiting or inhibiting or forbidding (or an instance thereof)

edict | a decree that prohibits something

law | a law forbidding the sale of alcoholic beverages

refusal | refusal to approve or assent to

time period | the period from 1920 to 1933 when the sale of alcoholic beverages was prohibited in the United States by a constitutional amendment

(5 meanings)

Synonyms

action | forbiddance | inhibition

edict | ban | proscription

time period | prohibition era

Restriction

regulating | an act of limiting or restricting (as by regulation)

restraint | the act of keeping something within specified bounds (by force if necessary)

rule | a principle that limits the extent of something

(3 meanings)

Synonyms

regulating | limitation

restraint | confinement

rule | limitation

The difference in writing style is that this took me 1 hr to write and edit that post and i wrote it in MS Word and then pasted it to Mises.org.

Most of the other ones Ii write in chat style, real time and directly on Mises.org i.e. I write as it goes with very little editing and spell check.

The same flaws of 100% restriction happens at 1% restriction. The consequences of that restriction is reflected by the % that it is restricted. From all out black market to re-directing market investments, to consumer purchasing decisions, to all kinds of economic problems.

To be sure however partial restriction is still restriction and still produces a net loss to the economy as a whole.

The restrictions in and of themselves are counter-productive to economic output. But whats worse is the consumer must pay the coercer to upkeep these restrictions so not only are they at a loss for general economic production they must fund a compulsory monopoly to maintain the restrictions. It’s basically a double punch to the face.

@Flic,

Your interpretation is that 1 % restriction equals 100 % restriction i.e. prohibition. It is interesting but my second question you did not answer is what the Austrian School has to say about it. Do it also equate 1 % restriction with 100 % restriction i.e. prohibition?

No thats not what I said at all. I said that 1% restrictions will have consequences just as 100% restriction has consequences. The degree and sometimes the type of consequence differs. I even went so far as to giving you examples. Examples include

  • Differing business to other non-restricted industries
  • In ability to compete with non-restricted industries/business’s
  • Capital and investment moves out of heavily restricted industries if the restriction is so heavy that it undermines the profit motive
  • Development of black markets ect..

Consequences and degrees of consequences changes based on the degree and type of restriction. I’d prefer not to repeat myself if possible.

Austrian’s have written entire books about this. Rather then employeeing us a free private tutor go buy Economics in One Lesson. Hazlitt explains how various types of restrictions in the aggregate harms an economy as opposed to benefits.

Thank you for the explanation.

A friend of mine sent me this yesterday as an example of the existance of an quasi-anarco state. The Early American West
http://mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

Personally I’m not so certain it applies for societies larger than 200 individuals. I personally believe that pure anarchy works in groups with less than 200 individuals. 200 individuals is the capacity a human beings brain has for having close relations with i.e. can know everybody and therefore know all these individuals preferences. In fact I read in a research journal that the maximum address book size of any individual is 200-250. It is also how most workplaces are organized.

The issue of the state and its organization is as with the necessity to work hard for survival. The larger the group that cooperate the less need for hard works however the need for organization increases. Larger groups than 200 requires some kind of outside force to get the individuals to conform to group norms i.e. the norms that the individuals in the group is in agreement about. In a group of 200 it is possible to get consensus without force. When the group evolves in some kind of societal order of larger magnitude all the trappings of the state emerge. Military often in the form of an aristocracy, a supreme leader that need to legitimize his rule by being chosen by god who leads to the necessity of priest and a code of personal conduct and law codified in a religious tract eg. “The Old Testament”. If you do not conform the king can kill you and if you behave immorally (not according to the codified morals) you go to hell. The ultimate punishment that gets everybody to conform.

I have not read the text yet but most townships and communities in the Old West, was if I don’t remember it incorrectly, often under 200 individuals. In larger townships the cattle barons ruled or the salon keepers/business men ruled.

As we cannot take back 10,000 years of human evolution/development in particular and the last 200 years in general I personally believe that for a libertarian the foremost cause should be to limit the growth of government, not debating theories of anarchy or the possibility of an anarchic state.

This is done in my opinion twofold. Fight against taxes and for deregulation with fervor.

But that is only my 2 cents worth.

Homo Illuminatus, your breaking my balls. I almost want to beat my head against the wall. Read the following excruciatingly carefully.

Wrong. Observe.

If you make the the possession of marijuana legal, but the purchase and sale of it illegal, then you have prohibition against the sale and purchase of marijuana. 100% restriction. The words are synonyms in this context.

I understand that with regards to the entire industry of marijuana there is not prohibition, however THERE IS still prohibition with the respect to the sale and purchase of it. Do you see how important context is?

Do you now understand?

Read your definition. The act of forbidding. Are you trying to tell me, that making the sale and purchase of marajuana illegal is not the act of forbidding the sale and purchase and marajuana, the same as, prohibting the sale and purhase and sale of marajuana? Are you realyl really really trying to argue this?

Because your skwed interepreation of prohibtion which you haven’t really clearly stated is, Prohibition is the act of forbidding something and all things attached to it. e.g if you made a law saying no immigrants allowed, from your perspectvie this is a prohibtion on immigration. However, what you fail to see, is that if you only say “white people cannot immigrate to the states” that is a prohibtion against white people.

I beg you, after reading this 10 times, admit your wrong. Accept it. The above completely proves it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quote where I used wikipedia. Please.

As far as I am aware, I’m using the standard definition in the dictionary.