The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism

[A_L_Pruitt]

Ilived in England for 10 years and might as well be considered British in the sense that if I met someone from the isles and I chose they woudn’t have a clue otherwise. In addition I’ve lived in Italy and spent extensive time in Danmark, Germany and France, as well as Spain and Sweden. So there are my credentials… oh it was Chalfont St Giles Bucks if you want to know where.

@GilesStratton

The British are a thuggish, uncivilized, state worshipping, high time preference, politically correct people.

Have you been to America? I hardly ever see Brits wave their flag with the exceptions of sports or when a Navy ship departs. So as for state worshipping…meh I think that word is too strong. in relation to the U.S I would say apart from Libertarians and the like, most people fall into that category, conservatives and liberals alike. The politically correct part…yes and no. I wouldn’t say its particularly worse than anywhere. It’s merely that each culture picks and chooses. e.g Violence is acceptable in U.S but not Danmark. Nudity is Visa Versa (T.V wise). So it’s not really that one is more politcally correct then the other, its just the issues.

@GilesStratton

Now, from other places I’ve live(d) I can tell you the US is better in all those regards,

Yes so from the above (after living in the U.S for 8 years and UK 10) I just don’t think the US is that much better in those regards. They really aren’t more freedom loving or resistant to the state. They just constantly scream it as empty rhetoric. They are just as clueless to those terms as anyone in Britain or Europe.

@GilesStratton

Europeans tend not to give a damn about the state whenever they don’t have to, using it for their own advantage occasionally, but besides that doing their best to ignore it . Most people from Western Europe would far rather live their lives around their family and God than the state, appreciating good food, drink and the company of their friends and family.

Yes they are more “cultured” but I have no idea why. For the Nordic countries I’m going to disagree with the God part. It’s really just a traditional cultural custom, they are not devout. However, I once discussed the issue of self ownership with my cousins and they readily stated that in part the state owned them. I think that is carried throughout all cultures…how prevelant it is…I do not know.

@GilesStratton

Rather than going out getting drunk off their faces as the English tend to do. Look at the general clothing of an adult anywhere in Europe and you’ll see they dress smarter, use less bad language and are generally far more civil, polite and friendly than the English.

Binge drinking is prevalent all over Europe. People in Danmark go through that stage at about 15-19. They definetly dress smarter.

Politer…yes and no … have you been to Paris and been unable to speak French? Their arrogance is on par with Americans. The only difference is that depending upon where you are in the states, some regions tend to be friendlier.

So in conclusion I’m not saying your completely wrong, but I do think your overstating your case. And we all tend to romanticize foreign areas in relation to our own. I did that when I was in the UK. I couldnt wait to move back the US.

And then I did, and tbh I really don’t like Colorado. Or the U.S. These people are blood thirsty, morally self righteous and hypocritical its unbelievable (christianity + Warrior Democracy spreaders??? LOLZ ). They have a ridiculous zeal for the state with their flag waving, etc its no patriotism its down right nationalism. They are incredibly ignorant of foreign cultures. They live in a crazy fantasy land. I really can’t stand the foreign intervention part. At least the europeans have abandoned imperialism of the the military kind. As I said, freedom isn’t really more prevalent they just like to say Freedom! fuck yeah LIBERTY! fuck yeah but they might as well say Slavery! fuck yeah .

Everyone thinks the Liberty movement birth, home and future is the U.S but I am not so certain.

[liberty_student]

@GilesStratton

@liberty student

You would win. I would also say that you experience bias because you lack the perspective of someone who has lived and traveled throughout the Americas.

That’s quite an assumption there, also an incorrect one.

How so?

@GilesStratton

@liberty student

This is not to condemn Euros, I like you guys. You’re funny with your fish and chips, dark beers and boulangeries. But Niccolo would make these silly arguments about how Italians were libertarian and they resisted the state as open agorists, and the whole thing was ridiculous on it’s face.

Niccolo was correct to some extent, I’m not saying the Italians are agorists but it’s got a far better chance of being successful in Italy than in the states, and especially the UK. (As for dark beer, European beer is a million times better than American or UK beer).

Successful at what? Rioting like the Greeks? Killing a few local politicians? Organizing into gangs? Forming a union? Attacking cops?

The Americans have 3 things that place them head and shoulders above everyone else in the competition for liberty, despite the fact that a good # of them are fat, dull and lazy.

1. They are armed.

2. They have a history of revolution and emancipation.

3. They have an entrepreneurial spirit. There is a reason why the Mises Institute is in Alabama, and not Vienna.

@GilesStratton

They also care far less about the state, they’re more concerned with being with family and friends or going to church.

Right. They are far more concerned with other things that state encroachment. Which is why there is an EU, and within a couple years of the NAU becoming a serious topic, the US Congress had passed legislation from Virgil Goode to put a stop to it.

I live in a parliamentary democracy. It is a bureaucratic farce masquerading as democracy. The American Republic is trending this way, but it’s not a systemic issue, it’s one of vigilance.

[Thedesolateone]

@GilesStratton

(As for dark beer, European beer is a million times better than American or UK beer).

Europeans don’t even drink beer

They drink lager

The UK is the last bastion for beer (real ale) and it’s something we actually do well

[Thedesolateone]

@GilesStratton

@Thedesolateone

@MatthewWilliam

I agree with Giles about culture completely.

Damn you despise a lot of minority groups…

I’m guessing by his signature he’s Irish, do you really expect him to cheer the English?

I was talking about your hatred of gays, blacks etc

[hayekianxyz]

@liberty student

How so?

I’ve lived in the US, that’s how.

@liberty student

1. They are armed.

2. They have a history of revolution and emancipation.

3. They have an entrepreneurial spirit. There is a reason why the Mises Institute is in Alabama, and not Vienna.

Remind me, where did capitalism originate, silly me thinking it was Europe.

@liberty student

Right. They are far more concerned with other things that state encroachment.

Yes, thank you for repeating what I’ve already said. That said Europeans have far less of a statist mindset, moreover, the state is less prominent in their lives than in that of the average English person, I can’t say about America because I didn’t live their for too long.

[hayekianxyz]

@Thedesolateone

I was talking about your hatred of gays, blacks etc

Funny, I don’t remember hating blacks.

[hayekianxyz]

@Thedesolateone

The UK is the last bastion for beer (real ale) and it’s something we actually do well

Even if it is warm.

[liberty_student]

@GilesStratton

Remind me, where did capitalism originate, silly me thinking it was Europe.

Capitalism is man’s natural condition, so why not just ask something silly like, “Where did man originate?”

@GilesStratton

That said Europeans have far less of a statist mindset, moreover, the state is less prominent in their lives than in that of the average English person

EU.

[hayekianxyz]

@loweleif

Ilived in England for 10 years and might as well be considered British in the sense that if I met someone from the isles and I chose they woudn’t have a clue otherwise. In addition I’ve lived in Italy and spent extensive time in Danmark, Germany and France, as well as Spain and Sweden. So there are my credentials… oh it was Chalfont St Giles Bucks if you want to know where.

Good to know somebody is speaking about the subject who has a clue about it.

By politically correct I meant the anti racism, pro environmentalism agenda, tell a European to say “African American” and they’ll laugh. Make a racist joke and by and large they’ll laugh.

Not so for the English, they’ll look at you like you wish to burn all the jews in the world and enslave the blacks.

@loweleif

Yes so from the above (after living in the U.S for 8 years and UK 10) I just don’t think the US is that much better in those regards. They really aren’t more freedom loving or resistant to the state. They just constantly scream it as empty rhetoric. They are just as clueless to those terms as anyone in Britain or Europe.

Well Europeans are very statist in rhetoric, in action they often show they couldn’t care less. The English are statist in rhetoric and action, moreover, they’re very self righteous about it.

@loweleif

For the Nordic countries I’m going to disagree with the God part.

Yeah, I have a Swedish friend who says the same thing. He told me that where he’s from you’re forced to register as a protestant upon being born or something like that, but few practise it.

@loweleif

Binge drinking is prevalent all overEurope. People in Danmark go through that stage at about 15-19. They definetly dress smarter.

Well, yes, I agree. Although, the mentality is different. I’d say on the continent it’s more of a matter of going out with your friends and drinking some beer as the night goes on. On the other hand the English are more keen on downing two bottles of cheap wine before going out.

[hayekianxyz]

@liberty student

Capitalism is man’s natural condition, so why not just ask something silly like, “Where did man originate?”

What are you talking about? Capitalism originated in Europe, Italy specifically.

[liberty_student]

@GilesStratton

What are you talking about?

I made it clear.

[hayekianxyz]

@liberty student

@GilesStratton

What are you talking about?

I made it clear.

And it doesn’t make sense, or square with the facts. I hate to break it to you but before capitalism man still existed, they were just largely self sufficient.

[liberty_student]

Whatever. You’ll have to find someone else to indulge your need for attention. This was pointless about 4 posts ago.

[Thedesolateone]

@GilesStratton

@Thedesolateone

I was talking about your hatred of gays, blacks etc

Funny, I don’t remember hating blacks.

OK, OK, what you actually said is that you would prefer not to associate with them

Although you do have a mixed race friend

[Jon_Irenicus]

Could we keep discussion of GS’s personal preferences to PMs? They have nothing to do with this thread.

[krazy_kaju]

@yessir

Let me just give 1 example. If you watched the daily show a couple days ago, you saw that apparantly the biggest pop star in Sweden, lives in an appartment that an average family can afford with a smaller TV than I have. Could you EVER imagine that happening in the united states. Could you imagine 50 cent going yeah like I don’t mind people taxing me to death, its for the national good???

Your argument is completely one sided, ignoring the arguments I presented multiple times in this thread. Sweden does have an oppressive tax system, but they do have lower corporate income taxes and less regulations than the United States. This removes many barriers to economic growth, making living in Sweden bearable for the average person.

Also I am not saying that the culture or social values were changed. I am saying that from the beginning they were much more egalitarian. In fact the only recent complaints I have heard about the welfare states from my dutch friends, have always had atleast a slightly racists undertone. “most of those immigrants are just on welfware while we work” (and these are not nationalistic people at all)

How about this from a theoretical point of view. If everyone in a nation has the exact same goals, a govermenmt can operate much more easily since they are simply combining the efforts of all people for those same goals. They will waste much less money than when each groups tries to take a little bit for themselves (as in affirmative action or w.e)

The problem is that nobody in a nation has the exact same goals. Even if they all agreed on greater welfare, it would not change the fact that they would experience lower economic growth than otherwise possible because of their welfare state.

[Illuminatus]

I was born in Sweden and the fact that 20 % of the population is foreingborn does not mean that they are muslim. Of the 20 % half was born by European parents and the other half is designated as of non European extraction. Most of them come from the Middle East but a lfarly large protion are Christian. However they are all tribal, extremely social conservative, religious fundamentalists and/or political extremists.

Sweden has now the same problems as does the US a polarizarion is arising between the majority and the minorities. Sweden will in the next election have a xenophobic, nationalistic and semi fascist/socialdemocrat party voted into parliament, the SwedenDemocrats, SverigeDemokraterna.

[majevska]

I’m fascinated by, but haven’t reached any sort of conclusion in the subject of the Anglophone world’s (I mean UK, US, Canada, Australia) culture and relation to statism. One might think the Anglophone world is generally more libertarian at first glance, but digging deeper, perhaps Anglophones only have the “loudest yelps,” for liberty as was said in the American Revolution. Reading Rothbard one would be lead to believe the US was “conceived in liberty,” but reading Nock or Kuehnelt-Leddhin one might think more highly of Poland, Italy, Germanic & Norse countries etc.

Anglophone culture certainly has it’s share of beastly aspects: disgusting aesthetic sense in general, in particular- architecturally, lack of decent culinary traditions, belief in alcoholism as a desirable lifestyle, seeming inability to distinguish quantity from quality, and more-- you see a lot of this lamented by Nock and lampooned by Mencken. Whether or not this has a strong relation to statism I’m not sure.

[A_L_Pruitt]

I’m not sure if Rothbard ever compared countries culturally, or praised one above the other.

[majevska]

@loweleif

I’m not sure if Rothbard ever compared countries culturally, or praised one above the other.

That’s true for the most part, but Rothbard did seem to have a bit of a “libertarian American exceptionalism,” if you will. What I’m saying isn’t really supposed to be about Rothbard, but libertarians in general; most libertarians do seem to view America as the cradle of liberty. Perhaps for this reason I should have avoided mentioning specific names at all.