The Utilitarian Case for Libertarian Rights

Notice, utilitarian arguments have aggregate functions.

Marginalists are not neccesarrilly utilitarian, whereas socialists are.

Neither Lloyd, nor Condillac, nor Gossen, who used the word Utility in place of Value, ever had sums of utilities of two people (Gossen only showed that each person had more utility after barter, but only because he valued the other good more than the surplus he had).

Utilitarians, ion the other hand, often talk about maximizing personal utility and society’s utility function, which Menger and Condillac and Gossen all argued against. As Gossen said, there is only the person who can succeed, and this by the greatest removal of impediments to making choices and monetary transactions.

Right so maybe the mainstream utilitarians are a bit off their rocker. It is still possible to believe in the greatest good for the greatest number even if you can’t measure it at academically. We have an intuitive grasp for which situations are more generally good than others.

I think utilitarianism has a strong instinctive allure to it. I also think the same is true of libertarianism. I don’t think our instincts were developed to be rationally compatible. It shouldn’t be a surprise if our innate intuitions conflict when we take them to their logical conclusions.

And it is used as one refutation of socialism. It is negative in nature, not positive. There are also some insights that apply to private firms, i.e knowledge.

That’s all besides the point - the movement wasn’t built on the socialist calculation debate.

That’s unfortunate. I don’t think you’ll be any where near as effective then at spreading Libertarian ideas.

What? No it wouldn’t.

Obviously not by the NAP, but by universal utilitarianism yes or no.

I have responses to your post Conza, but I don’t want to sidetrack the thread. Bottom line: I want to know if libertarians can also meet universal utilitarian standards espoused by socialists.

I don’t know if I grasp what you mean here exactly.

Our “innate intuitions” always conflict with the intellect means (A) intellect and intution remain distinct and the conflict is in their unique identity: intuition is intuition and intellect is intellect, or (B) intution and intellect conflict and disturb each other and can’t resolve what they each bring up and share from their unique nature.

maybe there is a (C)… idk.

?

No I didn’t say that. I said that I didn’t think our instincts were developed to be rationally compatible.

Put differently, there is no reason to believe that our innate intuitions all agree with one another. We were simply born with them… so what?

I’m saying that I won’t be surprised if there is an unresolvable schism between valuing the greater good vs individual liberty. I was saying I think they are both innate, and may contradict on some levels, and that this doesn’t surprise me.

Though it does disappoint me, since it would be awfully convenient to kill 2 birds with 1 stone using anarchism. Though it seems we can only fully capture individualist ethics, while covering about 99% of utilitarian concerns.

then you stated they conflict with logic (i substituted logic with intellect in my response). maybe that’s besides the point.

this brings me back to what I was asking. when you they “contradict on some levels” do you mean because greater good and individual liberty are separate identities, thus, have a distinct nature/definition? And since they are both innate are you saying an individual performs/values for the greater good and for their individual liberty at the same time, yet, they contradict each other creating turmoil in any particular individual (since they are innate I assume you mean each person has this turmoil/contradiction).

ah, maybe your trying to show how the greater good and individualism unite in some form of an explanation? Thus trying to come up with an explanation that speaks to an individual as well as large amounts of people (greater good)? Isn’t the “uniquness of each person” both a statement that speaks to the individual as well as to each, thus, any one person which could be all or fewer people? I say yes.

Its like if my favorite color were blue, and my favorite icecream was chocolate, I could never have blue chocolate icecream, and I shouldn’t be surprised about it.

I think turmoil is too strong a word. I personally feel very strongly for utility and liberty. It doesn’t really bother me if they conflict.

Well I’m trying to see if there’s always a way to defend both individuality and the greater good at the same time. The free market does that for all economic cases. What I’m worried about is the non-economic cases like banning videogame violence. It seems like I have to make the individualist case on its own.

So they are separate things, definitions, identities? I’m asking a question not because I’m a skeptic, but I really wouldn’t mind the feedback on what I’m directly asking you. I am well aware of what info. I’m lacking in what you are trying to communicate to me, I believe I am well aware, and if I could simply get an answer to this question then maybe you don’t have to keep coming up with abstracts. A simple yes or no may suffice.

So they are then separate identities that can’t mix? I asked this three posts ago, in the last post, and now this post again. So without a yes or no on this question I’ll keep guessing on what you are talking about.[Y]

I don’t even know if “banning videogame violence” for one individual would do anything for that one individual, thus, why it probably wouldn’t even expand to the “greater good”. If it does do something for an individual, then it could expand to the greater good, but then it gets into method of intervention and the kind of intervention itself to ban it.

Sure. Utiility and Liberty have different definitions so they are different things.

I think that Hillary Clinton people are blaming videogame violence for a lot of violence in society, and that violence could be reduced if we banned violent videogames.

This may or may not be true, so lets consider a more extreme example: Libertarians typically support free drug use. What if there were a drug that had a chance to make you go berserk and start attacking people? Does it count as aggression if I take this drug? If it doesn’t, and I am indeed within my libertarian rights to take it, don’t utilitarians have a case against me? Don’t even weak-consequentialists have a case against me?

Utilitarianism can easily be used to ‘justify’ evil. I didn’t say that utility per se is evil (and I’m not really sure what’s meant by utility either…)

Doing what’s morally good (respecting individuals qua individuals) leads to good ‘consequences’ - they are sides of the same coin. I don’t think that taking consequences into account automatically means you are a utilitarian.

So, why is it that they [statists] aren’t ?

YES!

I don’t think the analogy utilitarianism-scientific method is valid. In the case of Mises he’s bent on ridiculing natural rights and then, despite his libertarian sympathies, he adopts a wholly pro-slavery position such as conscription. You might want to see that as an intellectual mistake but to me it’s a logical consequence of his ‘pro greater good’ philosophy.

I’m not sure what you are getting at. If “we” don’t want business cycles, “we” should not create money and ‘credit’ out of thin air - agreed. But that’s not a moral “should” but a means/ends “should”. And who is “we” anyway ?

Agreed. On the other hand, a moral principle is a shortcut of sorts - it is also a generalization.

Well, intuition seems to play a part, granted, but intuition alone is not a justification.

people can blame their aggression on anything in the world when it comes to chance.

  1. It is completely analogous. In many instances throughout this thread, you attempted, via the exemplification of some objectionable conclusions which Mises expressed, to disprove or atleast doubt that “utilitarianism” is the or a correct method.

If you desire to show that his method, via no erroneous usage of that method, led to those objectionable conclusions, that would, if you were to succeed, be a devastating attack. But you did not even attempt to do that.

  1. I do not believe that you understand what Mises meant when he used the term “utilitarianism”. It does not represent a doctrine even remotely close to either a “pro greater good philosophy” or to what I wrote here:

In his system, the doctrine “utilitarianism” merely states that (a) the existence of the division of labor along with any further intensification of the division of labor benefits each individual involved and (b) that, therefore, it is a means, not an ends, and (c) that, therefore, the self-interest of an individual translates to the social-interest of the individual. In other words, one should desire to strengthen society because one desires to strengthen oneself.

In the system which Mises enacted, the “means/ends “should”” is the only “should” which exists.

It is just an example.

Well, it could never be used to justify anything that was evil from a utilitarian standpoint.

I totally agree that 99% of the time this is true. But see my videogame/berserk drug example for a (potential) conflict.

Why is it that statists aren’t appeased by the great consequences of markets? They don’t believe in them :stuck_out_tongue: Or they’re not real utilitarians…

[:^)]Or had 100% probability of making someone go crazy and kill the first person they see. Also you can’t bring people back to life or travel backwards in time.

The pt of the example was to try to demonstrate a conflict between utilitarian/consequentialist recommendations (to stop ppl from taking the drug) vs Libertarian philosophy to let people do the drug and just assert your right to self defense if it comes down to that.

@all: Sorry I took so long to respond. Big exam day :confused:

to answer the op. i think the problem is that the libertarians get cionfused and try to make consequentialist arguments because it would take too much time to expound deontological philosophy in every econ paper. even if free enterprise deliversers the goods better than planned economy, socialists still have a problem with the largely subordinate position of average workers. even r. long cannot argue that in libertarian utopia workers are supreme, because firms compete to please consumers- not to hold slumber parties for their workers. so you have to worry not just about the results but also the means.

lol no time travel?

Anyways, this is too complicated. How would anybody know if a drug and not their will power, even very, very slightly, is totatlly involved in them killing somebody? How do we measure will power and then separate that from the drug effects?

I don’t think the example achieves a demonstration of the conflict between the two. As my questioning above in this post comes about.

The point is that when you take this drug, you start killing people. Whether or not the drug makes you do it or everyone just chooses to do it after taking the drug doesn’t matter. Every time someone takes this drug, they go on a killing spree.

Of course libertarian rights say that its okay to take the drug, but not okay to go on a killing spree. So wouldn’t libertarianism require that we let people take this drug and then deal with the consequences?

Doesn’t matter if its “them” or the drug. See above.