Two Questions

in my personal opinion libertarianism involves understanding that there are crimes and non-crimes.

there are ugly acts which are not criminal. acts that are ugly make you sad and upset to consider them, you dont like that they happened but you have no rights to punish the doer of them and no grounds to seek restitution.

transacting with a criminal who has not yet made good on an outstanding crime is not a criminal act. the worst it might be is very ugly. If i rob a bank and then go to my local grocers and buy my weeks shopping, would you indict my grocer for aiding and a betting a thief? the only grounds for the grocer to be considered a criminal would be if he was a participant in the theft, or when made aware that the truth of the matter is that the income earned from the thief is truly the property of another, does not payback that person his due, (the grocer would have a right to sue the robber for what he was defrauded from should this be the case.

if i invest in a company, and a worker goes out and robs a bank, how could i be responsible?. sue the criminal, not someone that has a non-criminal association with the criminal; do not sue somone that does not currently possess stolen property.

Am I making any sense or is this crazy talk?

the investor in the bridge is not guilty for the crimes of another. if other bridge owners wnat to sue,. they should sue who did the deed. why is this not enough, why sue the investor, why sue the people that he purchased his groceries and electricity from? why sue the people that wished the criminal a good day? etc. etc.

In the 18th century, it was common for people to refuse to do business with British tax collectors. They wouldn’t be able to go into a store anywhere to buy anything. It’s very effective if everyone does it. It’s an excellent means of nonviolent resistance.

Refuse to do business with known criminals is a great way of deterring crime. It’s also sound practice. If the criminal has robbed someone else, he’s much more likely to rob you!

yes, i appreciate that shunning criminals is prudent good practice. but it should not be a criminal offence to avoid doing it. (though it might open you up to some risk of being shunned in turn) etc.

in other words…I agree fully with your post.

straw man.

The idea at play here is that the investors are liable for torts attributed to the corporation.

Yes, you’re making sense. No, not crazy talk.

I think we rapidly approach de minimus.

No way man. All of my workers rob banks. Those banks are collaborating to protect the expropriated surplus value of the capitalist pigs!

/sarcasm

how does the court tell when its a ‘human action’ or ‘corporate action’ ?

That is precisely the problem. I hinted at this in an earlier reply to this thread. Clearly, the employee robbing the bank on his own time is not “corporate” action. And there’s an entire spectrum of Human <-----> Corporate between the personal bank robbery, and e.g., the corporation polluting the local rivers.

But the idea that there is ‘a corporation’ as an actor, who polluted the rivers, is patently absurd. We constantly point out the fiction of government - that behind all of the evils we attribute thereto, is a human being, who is ultimately responsible for those evils. The ‘corporation’ is no less a fiction in this regard than the government.

Now, if the corporation is structured in such a manner as to make individual responsibility difficult or impossible to discern, what I said before was that I assume this structure is intentional, and rather than pretending that “there is nobody to charge with the crime”, then charge them all, collectively. They can (among themselves) distribute the burden however they agree.

i disagree, because i agree with your next paragraph…

but then :

strikes me as silly since, its like saying, if there is no evidence of any particular person being a criminal, we must indict some group of people around which we are suspicious that the blame falls on one of their members. even though the premise is that there is no evidence of any particular person being a criminal. what does this do? doesnt it fly in the face of justice somewhat. you dont have to prove that someone has committed a crime, rather, you only have to suppose that there might be a crime, and that he might be part of some conspiracy that did it…

I agree. There is going to be a need for this sort of law for and against collectives, even if they are not corporations, then communes and such.

my suggestion is to consider ‘proper’ corporations not be a word that means the creation of fictious legal entitities that can ‘commit crimes’ ,‘own things etc’. but simply understand it as a word that describes contractual relationships between people i.e. between members of the corporation.

You’re not listening. I’m not supposing there is a crime.

There is a crime. Assume it as a given. And that it can be traced back to a group of people calling themselves a corporation.

And further, we know that by design this organization is structured and organized in such a manner (specifically it is designed to divide responsibility, control, and action six ways from Sunday, in order that each individual participant may maintain ignorance and/or plausible deniability with regards to the events under consideration) as to obfuscate the truth about who (among them) and who is not personally responsible for the action(s) in question.

Now, I maintain that if you’ve structured your organization in such a manner on purpose, it’s because you don’t want to be held responsible for what your organization does.

And what sort of man refuses to take responsibility for his own deeds or misdeeds?

I’ve got no qualms with this, nirgrahamUK

I’ll agree with that, but not the blanket claim (not necessarily made here) that all limited liability is dishonest by intent. In the market, I have given my customers my terms of sale that limit my liability. You might call it an adhesion contract, I don’t believe it is.

It is impossible to operate without defining the known risks and terms of compensation/responsibility.

  1. I don’t care to share an opinion on IP.

  2. I enjoyed looking through all the responses to this as I have been thinking about it myself.

First, limited liability, which is at the heart of the corporate structure, is an indirect subsidy in that it subsidizes risk. Thus by having this, our current laws shift the risk analysis that any member of a corporation would undertake (whether it be the manager in making his/her decisions or an investor in voting or buying and selling stock) in a way that enables that person to take on more risk than would have been possible without the risk subsidy, as I’ll call it. Without this risk subsidy, individuals will be more careful, profits might be lower (or higher - all conjecture), but “wrongs” will be more adequately addressed. The effects of this risk subsidy are similar to when we don’t enforce property rights violations when pollution crosses into neighboring land.

I am surprised that no one brought up the fact that theoretically corporations can live as long as civilization lasts. However, I only think this becomes a problem when risk is shifted (subsidized) as mentioned above because it allows corporations to obtain a role that an individual or group of individuals may not have been able to obtain within a lifetime. However, when risk is not shifted (subsidized), then the risk keeps a lid on the role of the corporation as it wil necessarily act more conservatively.

What about unlimited lifetime combined with IP law? Copyright I believe is 150 years after the death of the author. Well, if a corporate “personhood” is the “author,” then you can have works copyrighted forever.

In order for that to be true you would have to prove why limited liability is not a market phenomenon; the fact that state recognizes it is not enough. The state recognizes the right of contract, but it is not the originator of the right of contract.

You have started out by assuming preciously what you need to prove: That the corporate form is not the result of market processes.

because it is mpossible for two or more parties to draft an agreement (among and between themselves, only) the effect of which is to transfer their risk to unwilling third parties.

Very good thread and thanks for the moderator for pointing my new thread here.

Why wouldn’t someone like Coca Cola last very long? If I could explain why in detail, then I can turn around alot of people who think corporations would run the world without government. And shatter their crazy notion that government somehow protects us from corporations.

Can you explain in detail how the government allows them to borrow on favorable terms? This is a very important info for disputing people who don’t believe in freedom.

The Federal Reserve system’s ability to create credit out of thin air and inflate the money supply drives down interest rates. It is little different than if the government taxed everyone to create a pool of credit that it then lent it out to favored corporations. Large corporations can get better rates from the FED than others because of greater chances for a government bailout in case things go bad.

Leftists who spread fear of corporations are generally motivated not by actual history but Marxist propaganda. They believe private ownership of capital is oppressive, and inequality of income is immoral. There is no point in catering towards these people in describing the nature of corporations in a free market. A free market may shrink the corporations, but it doesn’t change their fundamental gripes about capitalism.

For those who believe corporations benefit from economies of scale and would thus end up growing until they have reached a monopoly, there are numerous studies throughout the 20th century that have shown such benefits disappear and are actually replaced by diseconomies beyond very small markets (compared to what these fear-mongers advocate). A corporation would have a very difficult time monopolizing a single metropolitan city, let alone a nation or the entire globe, were it to rest simply on economy of scale. This is backed up by empirical evidence. No society relatively close to a free market ever saw a monopoly, other then temporarily, such as an innovator that creates his own industry. The model case for these folk is Rockerfeller’s Standard Oil, which was losing market share for years before it was broken up by anti-trust law. If their model case does not fit their logic… Moreover, the few near-monopolies in American history arose because of consumer preference. They offered low prices and quality service. If such were to create a natural monopoly, this wouldn’t be a bad thing. As long as there is free competition, monopolies that attempt to exploit that status by restricting output, rising prices, and decreasing quality would quickly face competitors and lose market share. In other words, so long as there are no artificial barriers to free entry, monopoly does not imply inefficiency but actually the opposite.

Then there are those who dislike corporations for cultural reasons, believing that chains neuter local culture replacing it with cookie-cutter values. These people generally believe that such chains benefit from economies of scale or some mystical process that smaller competitors can’t compete with. Or they prefer hand-crafted to mass manufactured goods. The prime target here is Wal-Mart. I’m not sure there’s much use in arguing with such people. Just tell them that if they really believe what they are saying - that consumers would prefer small shops and local cultural quirks - they should invest heavily in and/or invent capital that will elevate the small stores and custom producers to have as much productivity per worker as the large mass manufacturers. Then they can competitively price their goods, and we can see if consumers really do prefer locally-crafted goods.

Then there are those people who fear private tyranny. Their rationale is that we don’t own the corporations, but we do own the government. Thus a corporate monopoly is bad, but a government monopoly is good. They argue that greed leads corporations to externalize costs (pollute) in order to maximize profit. Well, I don’t understand why these people fear private tyranny but love government. First off the government (that “we” supposedly control), purposefully failed to enforce property rights against business interests. In other words, it institutionalized the process of externalizing costs rather than preventing it from the get-go. Secondly, the Department of Defense pollutes far more than any private company. What do we have more control over - private industry or government? For private industry, our daily consumer decisions effect how it operates. Boycotts due to environmental concerns can effectively motivate companies to change behavior. As can lawsuits. Furthermore, corporate stock ownership is an open market, allowing individuals to purchase ownership stakes and directly control the business. The government on the other hand is significantly insulated from the populace. Its most frequent elections only occur every 2 years. Elections favor incumbents, with the reelection rate over 90%. Many positions in government are lifelong appointments. The government does not rely on voluntary support - it forcefully taxes what it needs to operate. Suing the government is generally ineffective, where not altogether prohibited, as it is its own arbiter. Such externalized costs or other forms of aggression struggle to exist in a free market, as there is free competition in governance. Courts and enforcement agencies would have a strong market incentive to cater towards such victims, especially because the perps have deep pockets. Monopoly government on the other hand has incentives to create alliances with big business.

Now, there are many policies of government that benefit big business, creating artificial economies of scale. These are regressive regulatory costs, tax incentives, easy credit, too-big-to-fail, direct subsidies, corruption, lobbying influence…etc.

But my basic point here is that if you don’t agree with your audience about WHY we should desire smaller corporations, your argument is likely futile. A libertarian should desire smaller corporations because of greater economic efficiency, greater consumer choice, reduced external costs (ie better achievement of justice), and decentralized power. A free market will not create less cut-throat competition, create less wealth inequality (although the distribution would likely be more normalized), end franchising, or offer communal ownership of capital goods.