Voluntaryism and the Left Anarchists

unconstrained by interference : self-determining → Leftist, because the natural condition of man interferes

Except it isn’t. Self-determining = “capable of determining one’s or its own acts”

having power of free choice → Depends what you mean by free… Man is not free from the human condition

It’s clear what it means. And to use “free” from the human condition is erroneous.

"We have seen that Crusoe, as in the case of any man, has freedom of will, freedom to choose the course of his life and his actions. Some critics have charged that this freedom is illusory because man is bound by natural laws. This, however, is a misrepresentation—one of the many examples of the persistent modem confusion between freedom and power. Man is free to adopt values and to choose his actions; but this does not at all mean that he may violate natural laws with impunity—that he may, for example, leap oceans at a single bound. In short, when we say that “man is not ‘free’ to leap the ocean,” we are really discussing not his lack of freedom but his lack of power to cross the ocean, given the laws of his nature and of the nature of the world. Crusoe’s freedom to adopt ideas, to choose his ends, is inviolable and inalienable; on the other hand, man, not being omnipotent as well as not being omniscient, always finds his power limited for doing all the things that he would like to do. In short, his power is necessarily limited by natural laws, but not his freedom of will. To put the case another way it is patently absurd to define the “freedom” of an entity as its power to perform an act impossible for its nature![7]

If a man’s free will to adopt ideas and values is inalienable, his freedom of action—his freedom to put these ideas into effect in the world, is not in such a fortunate condition. Again, we are not talking about the limitations on man’s power inherent in the laws of his own nature and of the natures of other entities. What we are talking about now is interference with his sphere of action by other people—but here we are getting a bit ahead of Robinson Crusoe and our discussion. Suffice it to say now that, in the sense of social freedom—of freedom as absence of molestation by other persons—Crusoe is absolutely free, but that a world of more than one person requires our further investigation." - ETOL, MNR

“The whole point is that the difference between holding a gun to someone’s head and denying them some life-essential service the same thing in the practical sense.”

No, it’s not. One is the initiation & threat of physical aggression. The other is someone exercising their property rights. Furthermore it’s a fallacy to seperate theory from practice.

“The libertarian distinction is a moral one.”

No. The libertarian distinction is of rights. It makes absolutely no comment about what should be done, because that is outside the task of political philosophy.

Ugh I’d rather not have a semantics debate with you Conza. In their minds, many people think that monopoly-water situations are involuntary. Your only point is that they are misusing the word, at which point they can just rephrase and say “well its under extreme duress”, so its all just nigling over definitions and rhetoric. boring.

boring but necessary, perhaps? You don’t know what the other guy means until he spells it out.

I prefer to circumvent as much semantic crap as possible by not even dropping the word “voluntary”.

The economic disagreements are irrelevant. Its purely theoretical in the sence that you will see what the correct theory is, since the economically correct state will be established. But for that, the state has to be abolished.

The economic disagreements are irrelevant. Its purely theoretical in the sence that you will see what the correct theory is, since the economically correct state will be established. But for that, the proletariat must seize & own the means of production.

:wink:

Can the proles exclude eachother from use of different means of production?

Why wouldn’t they be able to? I was just messing with Metus for being dogmatic.

Well, seizing the means of production (after abolishing the state) would be just an example of robbery (and I do not think that would occur often or widely spread), something a PDA would have to deal with. I get your allusion but I think after abolishing the state, and that’s what anarchy is about, a libertarian, i.e. anarcho-capitalist, society will develop.

The economic disagreements are irrelevant. Its purely theoretical in the sence that you will see what the correct theory is, since the economically correct state will be established. But for that, the state has to be abolished.

What? So we know that statelessness is “economically correct” but thats all? The majority of economics has been a waste!

See, I don’t think that is an issue personally. One way or another, you are going to have to address positive and negative rights. I find the word “voluntary” very useful in this regard.

Well IMO I think it will vary immensely between City Statism, anarcho-communism, and individualist/anarcho-capitalist propertarianism, reflecting the anarchist theory and varying cultural elements within and without the anarchist movement.

Yeah, in their minds - and they are both wrong & ignorant. It’s not semantics. It can have ramifications for strategy, direct ones if someone is going to propose “alliances”.

“Your only point is that they are misusing the word”

No it’s not.

The ignorance of socialists / anyone when it comes to economics is an impeding factor.

"For the paleo-cons, secession from a central State was not a taboo, and for the Austro-libertarians secession had the status of a natural human right (while establishment libertarians typically treat it as a taboo subject); hence, cooperation was possible. Moreover, the cooperation with the Austro-libertarians was to afford the conservatives the opportunity of learning sound (Austrian school) economics, which was an acknowledged gap and weakness in their intellectual armor, especially vis-à-vis their neo-conservative opponents. However, with some notable exceptions the conservative group failed to live up to these expectations.

This, then, was the ultimate reason for the breakup of the libertarian-conservative alliance accomplished with the John Randolph Club: that while the libertarians were willing to learn their cultural lesson the conservatives did not want to learn their economics." - Hoppe, Property and Freedom Society Reflections after five years

And the same result goes with the “left”, as Rothbard’s expedition showed. In the end if these folk aren’t interested in economics, then they’re not worth aligning with. Thankfully it’s been done and tried, by none other than Rothbard. The way forward isn’t through alliances at all - libertarianism is unique. Whenever someone tries to slot it into the paradigm it needs to be rejected.

I would say that there has been much land and property gained through murder and intimidation, usually justified and institutionalized by the state, that is in no more than 1 or 2 million illegitimate hands. What would a right anarchist propose we do about that?

“What would a right anarchist propose we do about that?”

What on earth is a right anarchist? What on earth is a left anarchist? What a crock of…

Libertarianism is neither left or right, it is unique. It’s amazing how much this needs to be said.

If your question is what is the libertarian response, let us know.

Epicurus, I think most of the rightful homesteaders are dead. The ship has sailed on justice and there’s not much we can do…

Functionally, how would voluntaryism differ from tribalism?

What on earth is a right anarchist? What on earth is a left anarchist? What a crock of…

Libertarianism is neither left or right, it is unique. It’s amazing how much this needs to be said..

I find it funny that you say that when not but a few posts ago you said

And the same result goes with the “left”, as Rothbard’s expedition showed. In the end if these folk aren’t interested in economics, then they’re not worth aligning with

Haha, always trying to win the debate, am i right? A much better response than lying to yourself, if you dont have an answer, would be to just say what Sieben said

I think most of the rightful homesteaders are dead. The ship has sailed on justice and there’s not much we can do…

I would say that within tribalism the people involved with that community would generally only trade and interact with the other people involved with that group of people, as where with voluntaryism there are no such “restrictions”. With tribalism they would look “inwards” as opposed to “outwards” in a voluntarist society, if that makes any sense. This doesn’t mean they end any interaction with other people.

Bert,

I am having a difficult time envisioning a world were two groups with completely different social and economic ideologies frequently interacting. Also, tribalistic societies traded all the time (also), and probably more than two opposite groups (say, stalinists and classic liberals) would in a voluntaryist society, due to overlying cultural similarities.