Wealth centralization in a free-market?

It’s not a problem with his example, because it’s irrelevant to the point he made. Surely you see that, don’t you?

I can’t find anywhere that you specify this. It seems that this is a hidden feature of your example.

That wasn’t my point. My point was to show how your example is not deterministic, contrary to your claim.

On the other hand, why simply make that assumption? Surely you can work it out for yourself? Why aren’t you willing to do so, if it’ll expand your understanding either way?

I believe I know exactly what you meant. As I said previously, Nirgraham’s example already shows unsold goods - namely those retained by the capitalists. Furthermore, it shows an increasing amount (in absolute terms) of unsold goods. Did you actually read what I wrote? Or are you being deliberately obtuse here?

It’s not a problem with his example, because it’s irrelevant to the point he made. Surely you see that, don’t you?

It was a problem in that he was claiming to refute my point, which he didn’t.

I can’t find anywhere that you specify this. It seems that this is a hidden feature of your example.

[Time2B, group A/goods] : “and new goods of 261.25**k of payments (priced at 287.375k)” plus [action] “workers use 287.375k to buy 100% of market goods from A” . The profit can be calculated from these numbers.

On the other hand, why simply make that assumption? Surely you can work it out for yourself? Why aren’t you willing to do so, if it’ll expand your understanding either way?

Certainly I could throw in any number of variables, occupying my time for the rest of my life, but what’s the point? I’ve already illustrated serious flaws in the Austrian conception of the market. In order for it to be by definition capitalist (that is an economy with wage labor and people seeking “surplus value”), then over time a greater value of (unsold) goods must enter the economy than exit.

I believe I know exactly what you meant. As I said previously, Nirgraham’s example already shows unsold goods - namely those retained by the capitalists. Furthermore, it shows an increasing amount (in absolute terms) of unsold goods. Did you actually read what I wrote? Or are you being deliberately obtuse here?

Sure. He gave a pretty good example of how our economy would work if capitalists acted like feudalists. I think s/he did good work with the example–it helped illustrate my point.

Just to clarify: why at Time 2 do workers buy 100% of A’s goods, but only 80% of B’s goods? The price being the same, I presume that B just prefers to withhold the remaining 20%? Then why does B prefer to sell goods to A at Time 2a - for the same price?

I guess the understanding of your example would be greatly enhanced by describing in details the preferences of all actors.

Why can’t the workers afford the product? Furthermore, why does it matter?

edit: Damn these forums. There were 3 more pages it didn’t bother to show me…

Just to clarify: why at Time 2 do workers buy 100% of A’s goods, but only 80% of B’s goods? The price being the same, I presume that B just prefers to withhold the remaining 20%? Then why does B prefer to sell goods to A at Time 2a - for the same price?

The workers only have money to buy 90% of the goods. The distribution in terms of percentages between the two could vary in a number of ways. I chose to make them unequal in order for one of them to be able to make profits.

I’ve rethought this a bit, and I’ve concluded that adding production goods into the equation would make the scenario more realistic. Capitalists do spend a large portion of their profits on productive goods, and this itself averts the problem I’ve highlighted for the short term–since unlike wages, spending money on productive goods does not produce value greater than what is spent. However, the value of the productive goods must ultimately make its way into the consumer goods. Thus, all capitalists may be able to realize profits at first, but the profit rate would have a tendency to fall until there is a crash. I’d like to model this, but I think I’ll have to figure out a way to do it using function in excel. The math is quite difficult. If you mess up early on, everything later gets messed up as well.

Then why do it?

On the whole “wage workers can’t afford to buy their own product” problem, if A paid B a wage in return for weekly massage, how exactly is this two-person economy on the verge of collapsing because B cannot afford to purchase weekly massage from A (or from anyone else, for that matter)?

Then why do it?

Well, we could assume that it does if you like (you might be right, actually). If anything, it would just make my main point even stronger. The problem would only be diverted if the productive goods transferred less than their value into the consumer goods.

On the whole “wage workers can’t afford to buy their own product” problem, if A paid B a wage in return for weekly massage, how exactly is this two-person economy on the verge of collapsing because B cannot afford to purchase weekly massage from A (or from anyone else, for that matter)?

Because that isn’t a wage. That’s simply a payment for a service. A makes no profits in that scenario.

A capitalist doesn’t simply exchange one thing for a completely different thing. Ultimately, a capitalist exchanges a thing for a greater quantity of that same thing (i.e. money).

all voluntary exchange consists of parties exchanging lesser values for greater values.

all voluntary exchange consists of parties exchanging lesser values for greater values.

So when I exchange a piece of green paper valued at $5 for a hamburger valued at $5, then I am exchanging things of unequal value?

(Note: I didn’t even use the term value.)

Exactly. You value the burger more than the green paper.

(You used it three times!)

Exactly. You value the burger more than the green paper.

(You used it three times!)

That’s not the type of value I’m talking about. If I have a $5 bill, I can only exchange it for things priced at $5. Therefore, these things must in some sense be equal.

(And I didn’t use the word in the part Malachi quoted)

No, I think you need to re-visit the fundamentals of economics.

How is a wage not a payment for service?

I beg to differ. He profits by getting a massage. If he didn’t profit by it he wouldn’t have paid for it.

I don’t follow. So a capitalist exchanges money for a greater quantity of money? That’s what makes him a capitalist? Who’s the moron on the other side of this transaction, exchanging money for a lesser quantity of money? An anti-capitalist?

How about we include person C. Say C asks A to find and manage for him a good masseuse and pays him a wage of two bananas a month for his service. Then A pays a wage of one banana to B to give C a massage. So on a monthly basis C pays two bananas for a massage. A gets one for finding and handling B. B gets one for providing a massage to C. All voluntary transactions. How does this three-person economy necessarily collapse because there’s no one willing to give B a massage (i.e. because B can’t “afford the product of his labor”)?

How is a wage not a payment for service?

I didn’t say it wasn’t. A wage is a payment for a particular type of service. There are also payments for services which are not wages.

Suppose that there is a group of apple trees and three people (A, B, and C). Let’s look at different variables:

  1. The apple trees are commonly owned and everyone is free to take from them. A “hires” B to pick 10 apples and sell them to C for $10. B then gives the money to A, who then pays B $10 for the service. There’s no reason that B would agree to do it for less than $10 since he doesn’t have to go through A at all. Therefore, this is a payment for a service, but not a wage.

  2. A owns the apple trees. No one can use them without her permission. A hires B to pick 10 apples and sell them to C for $10. B then gives the money to A, who then pays B $8 for the service. B could not have performed the action without A’s permission, therefore the payment for his service constitutes a wage. A is profiting off of the transaction.

  3. The apple trees are commonly owned. A “hires” B to pick 10 apples, and then A sells them to C for $10. A then pays B $8 for the service. This is simply a payment for a service. B could have sold them to C himself. A is getting money for her service, not for her property. A is not profiting off of the transaction.

  4. A owns the apple trees. A hires B to pick 10 apples, and then A sells them to C for $10. A then pays B $6 for the service. This $6 is a wage. A receives $2 for her service–the amount she would have had to pay B to perform it. The other $2 is profit because she owns the land.

If you like, we could call what I mean by wage a productive wage. A payment for a service which does not generate profit would then be an unproductive wage–as in your example. With this terminology, a factory worker would earn a productive wage, while a maid would earn an unproductive wage. My definition of capitalism requires productive wages.

I beg to differ. He profits by getting a massage. If he didn’t profit by it he wouldn’t have paid for it.

You mean a business profits by doing whatever it does? Then how is it that there are unprofitable businesses?

I don’t follow. So a capitalist exchanges money for a greater quantity of money? That’s what makes him a capitalist? Who’s the moron on the other side of this transaction, exchanging money for a lesser quantity of money? An anti-capitalist?

Yes, that’s precisely what makes him a capitalist. If I purchase shares of stock for $100 dollars today and then sell them for $120 next month, I have exchanged money for more money. Anyone who takes out a loan is a “moron” who exchanges money for a lesser quantity of money. Similarly, a productive wage worker sells his labor for money and then must exchange a greater quantity of money to buy the product of that very same labor.

How about we include person C. Say C asks A to find and manage for him a good masseuse and pays him a wage of two bananas a month for his service. Then A pays a wage of one banana to B to give C a massage. So on a monthly basis C pays two bananas for a massage. A gets one for finding and handling B. B gets one for providing a massage to C. All voluntary transactions. How does this three-person economy necessarily collapse because there’s no one willing to give B a massage (i.e. because B can’t “afford the product of his labor”)?

I need more info to determine the nature of this economy. How many bananas are there in this economy? Does A spend his bananas on anything besides B’s wage? What does B spend his bananas on? Is this a closed economy–that is, are there people other than A, B, and C?

you performed a service by sending price messages through the market, twice actually. You got paid for assumption of risk and your opinion. You are ignoring the temporal factor and you describe two separate exchanges, not one.
Investors and speculators perform important jobs in a complex economy, they are paid for services rendered. Employees also exchange lesser quantities of money for greater quantities. He shows up at the jobsite with a willingness to work, and leaves with skills and money, then he exchanges that money for goods that he could not have elsewise procured, and the effects of tooling that he did not otherwise own.

So a maid, a masseuse, a secretary, and a waiter earn unproductive wages? Anyone exclusively employing them would not be a capitalist, and a society exclusively comprised of these employees and employers would not be capitalist? Btw, why pay (employ) anyone to do anything which would be unproductive?

Anyone intends to profit by doing whatever they are voluntarily doing – whether they have actually profited after the fact, or not. All acting economic agents are speculators, and a profit (i.e. an improvement of one’s satisfaction/situation), after the fact, is not guaranteed. So some businesses (and people) establish that they have become unprofitable after their actions/decisions have been made. Perhaps they should not have done what they thought would bring them a profit or more satisfaction. Life is risky.

No, when you purchased the shares you exchanged your $100 for someone’s shares. When you sold the shares you exchanged your shares for someone’s $120. At no point in time have you exchanged less money ($100) for more money ($120). And at no point in time a moron existed who had exchanged his $120 for your $100.

No. Someone taking out a loan gives out a current promise (i.e. establishes a future liability) in exchange for the loan amount in cash. When he repays the loan gives out the promised loan repayment amount in cash in exchange for being releived from any further liability. At no point in time has anyone exchanged more money for less money, or vice versa. The fact that so many “morons” exist that find it profitable (including after the fact!) to take out loans should at least make you stop and think, a little bit.

Again, why must a wage worker be able to buy the product of his labor? Is the universe going to collapse onto itself if this is not the case?

There’s no money or anything else – apart from bananas – that anyone needs or desires. C grows and picks three bananas a month. He pays a wage of two bananas to A to procure and manage a masseuse for him. A pays a wage of one banana to B to give C a massage. They all are quite happy munching on one banana a month each. How is this economy bound for a collapse because there’s no one to give B a massage?

This is essentially Clifford H. Douglas’s A+B theorem.Here is an outline of the idea:

If this is the case it could be easily solved in a capitalist system by making exchangeable tokens that represent goods/services. Central Banking is the root cause of wealth and power centralization in my view. Innovative competitive currencies that were exchangeable for each other, in the same manner as currencies are exchanged on the world market except instead of exchange rates there would be relative valuations, would go a long way to solving any “overproduction”. So the problem, if it really does exist, wouldn’t be capitalism and instead it would be monopoly control of money through Government coercion. Hypothetically if there was a ticket created with every good/service produced that could be exchanged and retired upon redemption of the ticket for that good and all goods or the tickets that represented the good were valued relative to each other, owing to supply and demand, then the hypothetical A+B theorem would not apply. Without coercive restraints on the monetary system this is likely the exact situation that would evolve due to business adaptation in the quest for greater profits. Why pay a bank for these services if there are ways to innovate payment systems into businesses directly and therefore bypass the banking industry and currency monopoly to the greatest extent possible? So if this is a problem the cause is statism not capitalism.

@ Fool on the Hill

I’ve been mulling over your posts for the past couple days now and, after a bit of reading, I just do not find Marx’s explanation at all satisfactory.

In my understanding, the Marxist overproduction theory of crisis is a corollary to a Keynesian underconsumption theory of crisis and they suffer from the exact same deficiency: They ignore the process of entrepreneurial decision making and its effect on the capital and price structure.

The assertion Marx makes that unsalable goods can build up in all the supply chains of the entire economy only holds if prices are static. They are not. Clearance sales are just one example of the many ways a capitalist can liquidate an excess of inventory, bringing the real purchasing power of consumers in line with the number of goods for sale. Broadly, and simplistically speaking, the total sale value of all merchandise up for sale in a given period cannot exceed the total money available for purchases in that period. So long as prices are flexible we know the market will clear and the glut will be liquidated. Thus, purchasing power “leaking” into savings (Keynes) or supply of goods increasing in excess of purchasing power (Marx) is irrelevant to the consumer so long as prices are flexible (ie: can respond to supply and demand.)

Now, at this point you’ll likely, and very correctly, point out that this might result in entrepreneurs having to sell their inventory at a loss but this by no means requires that they continue to produce at that loss. This is why the entrepreneur’s assessment of market conditions and the entrepreneur’s place as an actor within a market economy makes him/her a cornerstone of Austrian theory.

The entrepreneurial calculus begins and ends with respect to a given product or widget and whether or not they can produce it at a profit. If they cannot, the widget does not get made and we have no inventory glut. An efficient business will produce items that have the highest contribution margin first, simple. (For those who might be unfamiliar with the term, Contribution Margin = Unit Price - Fixed Costs/unit - Variable costs/unit.) But what if they’ve made an error and on subsequent reevaluation they find a widget they put into production is not profitable? This is where Marx, it seems to me, is hamstrung by class analysis. For, while it may be true that capital tends towards centralization within the capitalist class, the distribution of that capital must by no means be uniform throughout said class. The distribution of capital is free to move between individual businesses or entrepreneurs within and even out of the class to find a better yield elsewhere. This is the essence of what a guy like Schumpeter would call “creative destruction”; if an entrepreneur can’t make a widget profitably investors will find somewhere else to earn a yield on their capital and other entrepreneurs benefit from capital/inventory liquidations by being able to acquire them cheaper than they otherwise could. Businesses fold and capital will move to and be redeployed where it makes the most profit because, in a dynamic economy with flexible prices, there is always an opportunity to collect the difference between inputs and outputs (profit) so long as there are consumer demands that remain unsatisfied. We may find the product mix available on the market is completely different than the way it was before, with widget X being sold more than widget Y where the reverse used to be true, but this is a feature of the market’s dynamism. Tastes and productive conditions are perpetually changing.

Also note that, barring the monetary shennanigans of our central banks and various price-fixing schemes like minimum wages, it is impossible for there to be no opportunities to invest capital for a return because the price of inputs (commodities, other widgets, labour, etc.) is determined by the ability of entrepreneurs to bid them towards productive applications. In other words we’ve come full circle, back to price flexibility, because the prices of the factors of production can only be as high as the maximum bidding entrepreneurs are willing or able to pay.

I know the thread has been dead for a few days but I hope you’ll respond. Marxism is a fun debate.

I’m only a hobby economist myself but If you’re looking to learn some Austrian economics I recommend Human Action by Ludwig von Mises. It’s quite the tome but ol’ Ludwig is an easy read compared to Marx and you don’t seem to have any trouble with him. Also for a specfic treatment of the underconsumption/overproduction theory of crises I’d check out the chapter the Paradox of Saving in Hayek’s Prices and Production (pg 131). Both books are available for free in the Literature section.

you performed a service by sending price messages through the market, twice actually. You got paid for assumption of risk and your opinion. You are ignoring the temporal factor and you describe two separate exchanges, not one. Investors and speculators perform important jobs in a complex economy, they are paid for services rendered. Employees also exchange lesser quantities of money for greater quantities. He shows up at the jobsite with a willingness to work, and leaves with skills and money, then he exchanges that money for goods that he could not have elsewise procured, and the effects of tooling that he did not otherwise own.

If they want to pay me for my opinion, they should just give me $20 and ask. If they want to pay me for sending price messages through the market, they should pay me for when I buy milk at the grocery store. If they want to pay me for risk, they can find me at the slots.

Employees as a class don’t exchange less money for more money with the capitalist class when they gain new skills. When he goes to sell those new skills, the employee receives less money than the capitalist receives as a result of employing him.

if you want to sell advice, all you have to do is find a buyer. You chose instead to speculate, and so you apparently preferred this arrangement to that.

They do. Its called “milk.” just like you got paid in money when you sold stock for money.

apparently they can find you at the market

yes, they do. They exchange unskilled labor (less money) for skills and skilled labor (more money) which they then take with them. also, employees are part of the capitalist class.

no, he doesnt. The business owner (you call him capitalist) expends money on the employee and on every other part of the business process, and he only profits (not necessarily more than the employee’s wages!) after expending money on every part of the firm. The employee’s labor is only one input out of many, he doesnt get to take credit for the work of everyone else at the firm.