It’s true. If I could have all of my unproductive arguing time back, I could probably afford to go on a nice vacation, since I am self-employed, and no third party is subsidizing my internet time.
If you want a real challenge, listen to their complaint, isolate the state induced problems, point them out, and then solve them. I find that you can outflank people on their own arguments by co-opting them, then re-interpreting the argument through a free market lens. But that’s only if you want to really bum them out by stealing their thunder, proving them wrong, and hammering the issue into submission.
Haha, you know I’ve done that before. Many seem to have no counter arguments and simply shift the discussion slightly to a side issue, or to ask a question in search of a problem. Not hard with the more “mainstream” people who are just casual socialist, etc, but the “true” Marxists.. oh man. The best I can get out of them is a no-reply.
What always happens when you argue data with a zealot is he shuts up when you win only to pop up at a later time repeating all of the same things. It never fails. The simple reason is that data is not the basis for his advocation of programs. The data that he presents is merely a scam to lure more passive people who would otherwise not possess the convictions to participate.
The thing about many socialists is the complete ignorance toward past. Even if they dont believe in libertarian theory, at least they could read up on how well socialised services have worked. Even when they see any trouble in socialised whatever, they keep crying: “capitalist influence!, too much markets,” even in situations where over half of GDP is govt spending.
And then when you talk to them about full blown socialism, aka USSR and PRC, they cry, “oOOOH, not real socialism! They surpressed natural worker organisations, they were tyrants!” Well guess what, that is the requirement for nonvoluntary communary life, coercion and elimination of competitive elements.
They just live in a fantasy world, unless they decide to look around with open eyes, there is nothing you can do.
Jonathan, that was a great line of posts of yours responding to Brian in that link you provide. Eventually at one point he even admitted you had all the facts, but then simply called that an “objectivist society” that can never really happen even though he never gives an answer as to why it can’t happen. He simply cornered himself {or you corned him} in which he began to only make assertions not based on anything logical, factual, or even by the hand of God (meaning some kind of justification for his opposition) - he simply began saying, ‘You can’t do it.’ and left it at that, then told you to read some books..lol. I love the quality effort. Your understanding of economics and history is excellent! And I’m not saying that cause I have a good handle on it, but rather, I’m saying this in honor of the fact that I learned something from you. cheers[:)]