What is Anarchy?

further, given ‘subjective value theory’ there is no sense in my ever fretting, and worrying myself over whether i have assigned the ‘correct’ value to things out in the world. the notion is laughable.

should a person be equally so agnostic as to whether they have assigned the ‘correct’ moral rule to their personal code?. rather i think, that a person should be keen to get correct -objectively good- moral rules, and it is not laughable to suggest that they should. rather, it is stone-facedly important

How many heartless criminal monsters do you actually expect to convert with ingenious derivations?

I can just imagine Hannibal Lecter looking up from the parking attendant he’s been eating with a look of sudden awareness: “You’re right, Mr. Moral Objectivist; my natural rights deductions have been fallacious all along! It’s the straight and narrow for me! Let me help you with those chains.”

i think you are missing out that appeal to objectivity is part and parcel to the winning people over emotionally to whatever personal moral code.

in point of fact, try educating people into a particular moral code constantly whilst telling them that the code is just a pleasant fiction you believe is right for you and hope will work out for them.

you might find that you can influence them more powerfully if you appeal to what they wish to be appealed to when forming a personal ethic, which is an objective standard.

I guess if I say, “I feel you are wrong.” - I will stop the criminal.

BUT if I say, “I think you are wrong.” - I will not stop the criminal.

WOW - big difference. thanks for the heads up. [sarcasm]

if I only thought, I mean, felt about this before [again sarcasm]

Yes, what is significant will vary according to the situation and the aim of the analysis, which is why I like this particular definition for the purposes of defining “monopoly on force.” It happens to coincide quite well with what I mean when I call the State a “monopoly on force,” and anarchy “the absence of monopoly on force.”

I think these posts are coming in faster than I can read, so if this post sounds out of context, I really don’t care.

Butler Shaffer made a point in Boundaries of Order that any political or moral philosophy anyone ever advocates cannot be purely objective. It must be traced back to the subjective desires of people. Even if it is an attempt to equalize or normalize all human desire, the desire to create such a system is subjectively chosen by those who advocate it.

So point # 1 - no political system rests solely on pure subjective desire for such a system by every member of society. This should be especially clear when we think that our current system enfranchises some at the expense of others. Surely those most heavily enfranchised would object to an alternative system under which they must work harder for less pay.

Back to Boundaries of Order - everything is unique. Our human minds are conditioned to abstract and classify these unique structures and events into meaningful concepts.

Point #2 - If we were to try to fully treat everything as unique (as it is in reality), human progress would be impossible. We must ignore some diversity in order to deal with concepts on larger magnitudes more efficiently. Could you imagine if the human language had no plural words? What if there was no word “person”, and just “Adam, Bob, Dave…” etc.

Point #3 - All political systems have constant successful and unsuccessful active dissent. Joe the mugger mugs me…Zane cheats his taxes…Rao refuses to curb his anti-regime speech.

Combine all these points and answer “What is anarchy?” I**t is not a consensus of a mass number of people to live under anarchy - this violates point #1. I**t is not the absence of all coercion - this violates point #3. If you disagree with the last two statements, then you are effectively saying we do not live under a democracy (assuming you live in the US, Canada, EU…). Such a view might be able to be successfully argued towards someone sympathetic to a complex, detailed argument; but most people live by point #2.

Thus, my answer is to poll pseudo-random people throughout the society you want to determine whether it is anarchy or not, asking them who the dominant state is. If the most popular answer is “there is no dominant state,” then it is anarchy. If multiple states were virtually equally popular responses, then it is anarchy as well.

Of course, this poll does not tell us if there are dominant states for sub-societies of the one polled. If the results are filtered geographically, it may provide evidence that such is the case.

Someone may object to my poll on the grounds that states are coercive and anarchy is non-coercion. First, most people are conditioned to view states as sovereign entities rather than coercive entities. Second, anarchy != libertarian-anarchy. Anarchy is simply the lack of a dominant state, not coercion.

Your poll idea seems reasonable and yet it seems like anarchy then is determined by voting which is usually the sort of mob rule most anarchists oppose. This returns us to what is the “state”?, or in your expansion the “dominant state”?

Since your poll relies on the individual to determine whether they live in a dominant state or not then the question is in fact individual. So while you may live under a dominant state your next door neighbor may not. You may live in fear and you pay your taxes and obey every law the state provides while your neighbor only appears to follow the laws that he thinks coincides with his sense of right and wrong as such there is no state for him. Your neighbor may give due respect for the potential violence of any criminal but he sees the state no different than the common thief.

It is the attempt of libertarians to put everyone in the same boat of slavery that is misguided. Not everyone acts as if they are slaves so since the “state” is the same for both the difference must be in the individual.

Strange that such arch enemies would be in agreement on such a fundamental point. Welcome to the revolution.

Libertarians dislike democracy because it is blatantly aggressively coercive, even more so than past monarchies. So aggressive crowds are labeled “mob rule”, which is basically the kind of phrase a think tank designs and has the media repeat ad nauseam (…“cut and run”). But remember that Mises was quite insistent upon showing that capitalism is production for the masses.

In other words, even the ideal libertarian anarchist experiment is “run” by the masses. Their purchasing patterns, particularly of security and legal services will determine the limits within which aggressive coercion can exist.

On some level it is, on other levels it is not. You are ignoring my observations on complexity and abstraction. Most people would only care about a few large-scale abstractions from the data. Now, if everyone else believed something different from you, your poll result might be noticed for its peculiarity. If a large group of people agreed with you, your result would just be part of a larger blob.

For example, a tourist isn’t going to visit 1321 Liberty Steet on his vacation. He’s going to visit Liberty Town or Liberty Land. What is the difference between society and the individual?

Max I’m pretty sure that random individual rebellion is lacking both in its ability to establish a libertarian society and to sustain itself indefinitely. Let me give you an example - can a celebrity actor who makes millions of dollars a year successfully evade all income taxes and go on living his life? No. It doesn’t matter how much willpower or rebellious spirit he has; it’s an impossible fight. He’d be a high-profile target, and it’d likely be impossible for him to “go underground,” required to fly on commercial airlines and do public appearances, etc.

Individual rebellion may help the cause in some way, but it surely can’t constitute it wholly. One must recognize the suppression of freedom that still exists under such an exercise. The goal of libertarianism is not simply to violently fight those who attempt to coerce us or support the state, but to promote a political philosophy that serves as the backbone of order in society.

As I said in my previous post, you can never get a consensus on political philosophy amongst a large group of people, and some people may think it more efficient to resort to aggression than honest production. This doesn’t mean anyone is acting as a state, or that everything is a game of scale. It would still be clear that there is a libertarian anarchist society → for the most part the philosophic principles are followed.

My edit.

There are people who exercise prudence. It’s not pervasive, but they are there. That’s the remnant, not the movement people.

I’m not your enemy. We just focus on the few points where we differ, and not the many points we agree. To our mutual detriment. But that is the revolution, right?

I can’t speak for Max, but I think you misunderstand what he means by rebellion.

Thanks for these comments.

I believe I used that word. He is talking about directly defending himself against statist aggression. That’s rebellion, yes? Yet to him, the state is not special…just another criminal organization. Thus, rebellion is defense. The largest difference, however, is that his neighbors are likely to believe that his actions are unjustified against the state, while being justified against anyone else.

Sporadic, individualistic defense against a clearly-supported state is impractical and generally insufficient to create freedom. Look at Ed and Elaine Brown. They were forced to spend 100% of their days standing guard over their property. They were still arrested, and are now about to be sentenced to jail for the rest of their lives. No sympathizers are going to break them out. No bloc of voters is going to make them a campaign issue in order to get them released. No politician is going to rally behind their cause.

Again, I don’t think you understand what Max is talking about. But I have to be careful speaking for him.

We’re not talking about Ed and Elaine Brown scenarios.

This is true for example if I am trying to create freedom for you. If the goal is just maximizing your own individual freedom which is the only realistic goal to have then the probablity of success is much higher. The Ed and Elaine Brown scenario you describe is a question of tactics when confronting a larger force. Meanwhile millions of people don’t pay their taxes every year. Your basic stance is that I am surrounded by criminals and I do not have sufficient force to resist in any meaningful way so I am forced to comply with their wishes. This may very well be true where you are and for you but putting everyone in the world in that category is just wrong.

Try this exercise, imagine you wake up tomorrow on a beach in Somalia and you have food and water for a month and an assault rifle with 10,000 rounds of ammo. Are you free? If you are not why not?

The rest of the world is living a lot more chaotically than either you realize or can imagine. Heck living in remote areas of Canada could easily be considered anarchy.

My point I is that anarchy begins with your own mindset and if your freedom is dependent on your neighbor being in agreement then freedom is inherent to the individual. If freedom isn’t inherent to the individual then the entire libertarian philosophy has nothing to stand on. Being free does not mean that there are not forces working against you.

This is how I see it. Absolute freedom would imply that I face absolutely no aggressive coercion (and require absolutely no defense against such). Absolute slavery would imply that aggressive coercion compels my every action. While both are technically possible, neither are likely.

Nevertheless, I advocate reducing aggressive coercion as much as possible, which means preventing or rectifying it as efficiently as possible. Successful defense against coercion today likely means less coercion tomorrow. So defense is a valid tactic towards absolute freedom, but it is likely ineffective if unpaired with persuasion and education about why others should also seek to minimize aggressive coercion, and what political arrangements best accomplish such. On to your post…

I am not opposed to acts of rebellion. I only wish to illustrate that if done improperly (in futility), they will diminish rather than increase that individual’s freedom. And even when performed successfully, they do not guarantee freedom.

As I said, defending against or thwarting the goals of coercive actions is a good tactic to reduce their presence or reliance in the future. Civil disobedience and violent rebellion can be noble actions and achieve real results. But so can persuasion, education, and even voting (or working within whatever political system). Of course, some regimes only leave enough room for violent rebellion.

First, I don’t know about this binary condition of freedom. I can determine if I am more/less free in one situation than another. This stretches all the way to how I define absolute freedom/slavery.

From what I understand, Somalians do not accept outsiders into their legal system, which revolves around extended families or clans and customary laws. I would likely face more aggressive coercion there than I do here (even when accounting for the massive taxation I suffer here). Perhaps I could successfully defend myself against such, but that may likely be a full-time job, whereas paying off the state here is only a part-time job. So I’d likely be less free, even if my chances of thwarting my aggressors on any given day is higher in Somalia.

A hermit that chooses to avoid all human contact meets my definition of absolute freedom. No social interaction = no aggressive coercion.

The problem is that many of us desire to have human contact. Can one choose to come into contact and transact with as many others as he chooses without facing aggressive coercion? If so, then he is truly free. If one chooses to become a hermit simply in order to avoid aggressive coercion, then he cannot consider himself free. The existence of aggressive coercion alters his action preference.

I disagree. Of course some forces will always work against you, like physics and nature. These are outside the realm of political discussion, which rests upon purposeful human action. Your freedom is contingent upon the actions of others.

This is different from the ability to enforce one’s will in defense of their rights. That might be better termed autonomy or sovereignty. I don’t know - we shouldn’t argue about what words mean what but about concepts.

Let me try another example. Let’s say I want to make a painting. So I have my supplies and I’m ready to paint. But an endless mob tries one after the other to take my supplies before I can get started. I can successfully prevent them, but this is how I spend all my time, never getting a chance to paint. How can I be considered free? Aggressive coercion prevents me from expressing my will, whether I prevent the coercers from expressing theirs or not. This example is clearly unrealistic, but it underscores my theoretical point - freedom is contingent upon the choices of others to refrain from aggressively coercing you.

This is a perfect example of this creation of the “state” as what is keeping you from being free is false. We could probably agree that Somalia could be defined in conventional political terms as without a coherent state and yet we can probably agree that as you point out your overall level of freedom might be less than under a state. So the state has nothing to do with it, it is only the level of coercion you face whether directed by individuals or groups.

Since some level of coercion will always exist there is no anarchy end point to be reached, only attaining for yourself a situation in life that has as little coercion as possible. The starting point must be with the individual and your own inherent freedom.

Your point that your freedom depends on others permission suggests that other people have a power that you do not. There are other people who are in control of your freedom. How did they acquire this control?

Freedom is not a fish you can catch. It’s a social condition, that can only arise from a harmony of human wills refraining from coercion.

I only have direct control over myself. I can act in ways such that others will be less likely to use coercion upon me. But ultimately I cannot directly control other people. So they didn’t acquire control - they’ve always had it, just as much as you have enough control to infringe upon the freedom of others.

I disagree. Freedom is when you act to your own ends, regardless of the amount of coercion leveled against you. When you no longer allow coercion to be the key factor in whether you proceed or not.

Freedom is not possible without courage.

We are all entitled to our own pet definitions of words, and its often useful to have customised words in small groups of regular debaters who share some conceptual ideas etc. maybe we could think up some thread titles to post under where your version of Freedom is what is discussed and debated. However, your definition of Freedom is certainly not fit for the wider purpose of the kinds of conversations that are the bread and butter of this forum. Reading Rothbard (just for example) with that particular def in mind, will lead to confusion not clarity.