What praxeological precept(s) confirm anarchism over minarchism in providing for societal economic health AND societal security from external threats?

Sure, most corporations eventually fail. However, most of those are small start-ups that the owner realizes won’t be profitable. If 10,000 PDAs are formed and only 10 ever get big, that’s not a problem at all. But I guess you are trying to illustrate a situation in which there is only 1, and it fails. What happens then is that if there is unmet demand in the market for security, one or more new PDAs will be formed. There doesn’t have to be a delay in which the society is vulnerable, either; if you understand the catallactic function of the entrepreneur, you will immediately realize that failure of a large PDA is one of the future conditions entrepreneurs must predict, and that such entrepreneurs would line up resources and staff in order to effect a seamless transition. And if security is valued highly BUT new PDAs aren’t ready to take the slack, people will be willing to pay much more for the services of the dying PDA until others are ready, keeping the PDA afloat and keeping everyone protected.

Also, central organization does not provide any more of a threat to the society than decentralized organization does. I think we’re using the terms to describe two different things. I’m using centralized to mean with a central, hierarchical command structure. A centrally organized PDA could have a CEO who is in charge of everything, lower ranking officers that command their subordinates, and private grunts at the lowest level of the chain of command. In contrast, decentralized organization would be something like Al Quaeda, will lost of “cells” that operate somewhat independently. The market would determine which mode of organization gets used. Neither is necessarily more likely to overrun the society.

Defending hunches would be a non-logical defense. But I’m not. My point was that “hunch” is an attack word that has no place in a carefully reasoned debate. It is only really useful in the following kind of argument: “That’s a hunch so ur wrong.” I would have hoped that you would label them assumptions instead. An assumption is something unproven that a logical argument relies upon. Using that word would have shown me that you were trying to engage me, not attack me. It also would have shown that you understand logical structures and terms.

No, it was a thought experiment. Since you obviously didn’t get it, I’ll distill it into something perhaps easier to understand: PDAs that collaborate provide a better service to their customers. Therefore, customers will favor those PDAs. Therefore, PDAs will tend to collaborate.

As to the first part, if such a mutual defense pact enables the PDAs to provide better services (defense vs. big states), then customers will reward these companies. Fantastic!

As to the second, how do they “take power from the citizenry”? I can’t even figure out what that phrase means when no government is present. Please explain.

As to the last, a mutual defense pact with a state will have several effects:

  • Strengthens peaceful relations between the PDAs and the state, making war less likely.
  • Results in the PDAs being better defended against large threats.
  • Creates the risk that the PDAs will get stuck defending the state after it starts a stupid, aggressive war.

Customers will like the first two effects, but dislike the third. Customers will decide whether the pact was a good idea, and transmit their decisions through the price system. There isn’t a problem here.

By the way, this isn’t a “hunch”. It’s a thought experiment. You picked up the word “hunch” from Grayson Lilburne, and you use it far more often than it’s justified. Give yourself a little credit; call your imaginary situations thought experiments, not hunches.

Right. A very small anarcho-capitalist society would have a rather difficult time defending itself from large states. Perhaps such a society would use nuclear deterrent. Perhaps tribute. Perhaps they would threaten assassination. Perhaps such a society would be extremely undesirable to conquer due to its decentralized nature and dislike of government. Who knows? Such a society certainly has options, though.

I don’t assume that. In fact, the “sudden” part was an assumption you made earlier that I disagreed with! I think an anarcho-capitalist society would probably emerge gradually. But that’s just conjecture. The point is, I don’t make that assumption.

Besides, your point deals with how to form an anarcho-capitalist society. I thought we were debating whether such a society is sustainable and desirable. Thoughts on bringing about such a society belong in a tactics discussion, not in a sustainability one.

No. That’s a clever phrase, but it’s unproven and unscientific. The very word “corrupts” implies a value judgement.

Right. Because “society” doesn’t have any best interests. It’s a collective. People have interests. Not collectives.

All right, Aristotle, let me explain something to you. Whenever two people make an exchange, they both feel they are increasing their subjective utility. That’s right, everyone is better off. With peaceful, voluntary exchange, there are no losers. Everybody wins. They don’t break even. They win. Wow. You mean that everybody is better off? Yes. Wait, but what about exploitation? Doesn’t exist. No one was forced to make the deal. Everyone acted in their own self interest. Not just the corporation. Both sides to the exchange did.

An argument similarly fallacious to yours would be the following: How can corporations ever make money, considering all their customers act in their own self interest? And the answer is that people only exchange when the exchange furthers the self-interest of both sides.

Your fundamental misunderstanding here is your assumption that no one is rewarded for innovation without some sort of coercive monopoly privilege. Although I don’t have a history book with me, I do know that throughout history there have been other incentives for innovation; sometimes rich families pay for it, sometimes kings and queens, etc. In the modern world, a lot of people innovate for free. Just take a look at all the free software available at sites like this. At the link, you can find free programming compilers, free video editing software, free screen capture programs, and a host of other categories of free stuff that somehow got built without any monetary profit at all.

For a moment, let’s go back even further, to the beginning of humanity. In a world in which patents were not only nonexistent but inconceivable, somehow fire, the wheel, language, and agriculture got invented. How? Why? Those are difficult questions to answer. But there certainly must be some incentives for innovation besides monopoly privileges.

He is. Anarcho-capitalism == pacifism. It’s just that libertarians can’t spill blood for offensive (coercive) purposes. Defensive/retaliatory is perfectly acceptable.

Don’t trust your common sense ion realms of logic, science, and economics; it’s usually dead wrong. The average person’s common sense tells him that welfare reduces poverty, price ceilings make things more affordable, government is necessary to prevent exploitation of the consumer, and all sorts of other things easily disproved by even a cursory understanding of economics. So the fact that liberalism has an “obvious” efficacy is not at all a strike in its favor; what’s obvious to most people is simply wrong.

No problem. I was raised in a household where grammar was extremely important, so I notice grammatical irregularities much more than other people.

By the way, Rettoper, long discussions full of quotes are much easier to understand if you quote people in the following way:

Some quoted text here.

Where “<” and “>” are replaced with “[” and “]”. Nested quotes are complicated; I just put the original at the top and replies below it. If you quote this way, it makes everything better looking, easier to understand, and easier to quote in a reply.

No. Just like free individual citizens benefit from trading with an ancapland, so do monarchs.

If an ancap society had to beef up in arms, it would not have to “statize”. As I explained before with the accountability being built in to the contracts of security firms.

Right so its an “even if” argument. Market forces will deter lots and lots of war but “even if” alien zombies who eat brains and cannot possibly be reasoned or traded with invade, ancapland is still able to meet the threat the way i’ve been describing.

So? It doesn’t matter how stupid the common man is. Entrepreneurs who understand economics/division of labor/etc are the heads of industry. I mean right now doesn’t wal-mart serve practically every echelon of society?

There is no reason why insurance companies won’t have liability in both districts.

You should read the secrest paper. Moreover, there are currently more cases settled in private court than in public court, and more private security officers than public police.

But you’re right, there’s a lack of historical precedent for post-industrial anarchism. Then again, there’s really not much of any post industrial revolution evidence about how to structure civilized states. They’re all residual from agricultural days, when states had sharp advantages in terms of predation.

Well so this is speculation… you’re imagining that America has a common value system and heritage, but that would somehow all go away if the government were disbanded? Regardless, don’t discount economic ties. Beyond your family and friends, the only reason it matters if the rest of the world exists is for economic reasons.

Ideas change the world. The government can only exist because people think it is a good idea.

Because you can’t bomb your society into existence…

Nothing? I don’t understand the problem. We’re allowed to act in self defense, and pre-emptively if there’s probable cause.

I favor a gradual dismantling of the government. Starting with the very worst programs like the federal reserve, and ending with public provision of security. You have to tell the market exactly WHAT you are going to do and WHEN so that firms can adjust accordingly. Im in favor of proving to people that the free market works. Say “IF i get rid of the federal reserve, the economy will be much healthier and sounder in 5 years” and then when they see that, they won’t be able to argue.

I hope not. All of the current plans for anarchist communities are nonviolent. Secessionists just want to be left alone… seasteaders just want to be left alone. Maybe the state would go out and attack them, but like ghandi’s revolution in india, resistance does not require violent uprising.

hunchism run amok.

Stop posting and it too will stop, since it mostly emanates from you.

Rettoper,

Quick sideline reply…Just curious. Have you read or studied the basic writings on the subject of anarcho-capitalism from the likes of Rothbard and Hoppe? Are you comfortable that you understand anarcho-capitalism sufficiently in order to argue against its viability or sustainability?

A simple yes or no will suffice and I will exit the thread as I don’t want to derail it.

It has also shown that Brittany Spears has over run Bach in popularity, so what. Allowing masses of people to make decisions without knowing the consequences or giving them minimal incentive to really care about them, doesn’t prove anything good, it just subsidizes massive amounts of people to try to achieve “power” and get rich quick schemes in as easy a way as possible, without the least bit of concern of actual material consequences.

Democracy is the political version of welfare, with similar sociological implications and mindsets.

Something idealistic that is built to appeal to as many people as possible is not really my idea of a good form of the reality of societal organization.

However, you don’t need to even dig that deep to know the difference between Classical “Republics,” and the Republic of the Renaissance and Revolutions.

Vety true, moreover to mention “Greece” and assumes that has any positive meaning to the topic on hand is a concept I am having a difficult time wraping my mind around. References to “Greece” can not be given any meaning without very specific context.

As far as Rome is concerned, there seems to be no indication that Republican Rome was inherently better off than the Monarchical Etruscans in the time frame when they both existed. Moreover, when compared to the empires and civilizations of the Near East, I see no way to consider the Roman Republic anything that stands out in terms of an inherently superior government (it should be also noted that Carthage was a Monarchy that switched to rebublicanism as well).

It has also shown that Brittany Spears has over run Bach in popularity, so what. Allowing masses of people to make decisions without knowing the consequences or giving them minimal incentive to really care about them, doesn’t prove anything good, it just subsidizes massive amounts of people to try to achieve “power” and get rich quick schemes in as easy a way as possible, without the least bit of concern of actual material consequences.-- don

Elitist rhetoric. You are putting your values ahead of the “masses” you hold in contempt. YOur view sounds less anarchic and more statist.

btw, i’ll take a bikini laden brittany in concert and you can have your bach

Something idealistic that is built to appeal to as many people as possible is not really my idea of a good form of the reality of societal organization.-- don

at least representative government is an idealism that appeals to the vast majority of people, as opposed to anarchism that is an ideal that has little appeal among either the masses or business, academic, political, social, scientific elite

In summary, anarchism is unattainable at this time and likely for the long term future because it holds no sway among more than a fringe. your cavaliery discounting of what the “masses” desire is probably one of the many causal mechanisms for anarchism’s failure to gain even a tiny toehold on the political

Quick sideline reply…Just curious. Have you read or studied the basic writings on the subject of anarcho-capitalism from the likes of Rothbard and Hoppe? Are you comfortable that you understand anarcho-capitalism sufficiently in order to argue against its viability or sustainability? – chloe

ad hominen.

please issue arguments attacking the substance of my posts, it should be easy since by your defintion I havent studied AE

By the way, Rettoper, long discussions full of quotes are much easier to understand if you quote people in the following way:

Some quoted text here.

Where “<” and “>” are replaced with “[” and “]”. Nested quotes are complicated; I just put the original at the top and replies below it. If you quote this way, it makes everything better looking, easier to understand, and easier to quote in a reply.-- lennow

Thanks I will try to comply although most of my posts are done quickly and haphazardly since I am at work.

Sure, most corporations eventually fail. However, most of those are small start-ups that the owner realizes won’t be profitable. If 10,000 PDAs are formed and only 10 ever get big, that’s not a problem at all. But I guess you are trying to illustrate a situation in which there is only 1, and it fails. What happens then is that if there is unmet demand in the market for security, one or more new PDAs will be formed. There doesn’t have to be a delay in which the society is vulnerable, either; if you understand the catallactic function of the entrepreneur, you will immediately realize that failure of a large PDA is one of the future conditions entrepreneurs must predict, and that such entrepreneurs would line up resources and staff in order to effect a seamless transition. And if security is valued highly BUT new PDAs aren’t ready to take the slack, people will be willing to pay much more for the services of the dying PDA until others are ready, keeping the PDA afloat and keeping everyone protected.-- lennow

The scenario you have just described is what actually happens within the global anarchy that has been present since recorded history.

and it has failed utterly to produce peace, optimal prosperity, stability, and security for virtually all actors.

the geopolitic is a collection of “PDAs” that are constantly trying to kill each other. When they are not preparing for war they are engaged in trade practices that undermine prosperity

there is no reason to suggest that an anarchic society on a small scale will react any differently.

indeed, anarchism exists in large scale – and it has failed abysmally.

in contrast, the democratic peace theory is a real alternative of limited government that will lead to peace, prosperity, freedom, and stability

ad hominen.

please issue arguments attacking the substance of my posts, it should be easy since by your defintion I havent studied AE

Nope, it’s not ad hominem (he’s not disregarding your arguments for reasons pertaining to your person.) It’s a legitimate question considering the content of your posts. You’re free not to answer it, though I think you have.

in contrast, the democratic peace theory is a real alternative of limited government that will lead to peace, prosperity, freedom, and stability

Hunchism/pure assertionism.

Rettoper, wars aren’t fought just because one side is stronger than the other.

Even if given that a centrally planned army could defeat a private one (I disagree), what would be the incentive for a state to invade a fully realized anarcho-capitalist society? It is unlikely the inhabitants would be willing to go back to involuntary servitude. The state would have to either pillage and go away, or turn the area into a quagmire. How can it be worth it for a state to invest in a highly costly operation that has no long term profit returns?

If you think slaves would promptly return to slavery once freed, think again…

Defending hunches would be a non-logical defense. But I’m not. My point was that “hunch” is an attack word that has no place in a carefully reasoned debate. It is only really useful in the following kind of argument: “That’s a hunch so ur wrong.” I would have hoped that you would label them assumptions instead. An assumption is something unproven that a logical argument relies upon. Using that word would have shown me that you were trying to engage me, not attack me. It also would have shown that you understand logical structures and terms.-- lennow

I agree and I stand corrected. Your argument was substantive and deserving of a substantive response

Note that I was using the tactic that was repeatedly used against me by grayson in another thread. I called him on it and he refused to relent.

however, I will stop evading.

No, it was a thought experiment. Since you obviously didn’t get it, I’ll distill it into something perhaps easier to understand: PDAs that collaborate provide a better service to their customers. Therefore, customers will favor those PDAs. Therefore, PDAs will tend to collaborate.-- lennow

this “cooperation” is practiced in the global anarchic system and it has led to war, reduced trade, aggressive cartels, et al. PDA"s will only cooperate when it benefits their bottom line, not the best interests of their customers.

when states (PDAs) act in the anarchic geopolitic, they put their own interests ahead of globally prosperity or the citizenry. Where is the logic in going out of business for the customer.

in sum, we have a large scale experiment on what would happen among the disparate PDAs in a hypothethical anarchic society – and that example is harrowing example of constant changing alliances and efforts to undermine competing “PDAs” irrespective of the costs to its “customers”

note that an industry will always pass these costs onto the consumer, and if PDAs are engaged in constant conflict, they costs borne by the consumer will simply increase since there is no alternative. Moreover, a small start-up PDA that tries to cut costs would immediately be bought out by a larger PDA or overrun entirely.

As to the second, how do they “take power from the citizenry”? I can’t even figure out what that phrase means when no government is present. Please explain.

As to the last, a mutual defense pact with a state will have several effects:

  • Strengthens peaceful relations between the PDAs and the state, making war less likely.
  • Results in the PDAs being better defended against large threats.
  • Creates the risk that the PDAs will get stuck defending the state after it starts a stupid, aggressive war.

Customers will like the first two effects, but dislike the third. Customers will decide whether the pact was a good idea, and transmit their decisions through the price system. There isn’t a problem here.–lennow

A PDA that reaches monopoly status or that forms a cartel with a few other strong PDAs can pretty much dictate whatever it wants since the citizenry would not have the weaponry, training, or centers of gravity to counter any judgments or actions the PDA took. No doubt the anarchic soceity would degenerate into a civil war guerilla warfare.

we already know this will happen since the geopolitic is anarchic and it is constantly at war or preparing for war – there is no reason to think that an internal anarchic society would react any differently. in contrast, a limited government devoted to law and defense only would enjoy the same economic benefits of an anarchic economy without the constant warfare and competion for power or “market share” that is present in the global anarchic environment.

By the way, this isn’t a “hunch”. It’s a thought experiment. You picked up the word “hunch” from Grayson Lilburne, and you use it far more often than it’s justified. .–lennow

see above,

funny, I hadnt read this post when I made the response above since I have been responding to your points in order that they appear.

again, you are correct, and I have used it far more than it is justified.

No. That’s a clever phrase, but it’s unproven and unscientific. The very word “corrupts” implies a value judgement.-- lennow

your wrong,

the statement DOES have a value judgment. when individuals are given the choice between power and more power — which one do you think they will choose? This is why anarchism fails.

All right, Aristotle, let me explain something to you. Whenever two people make an exchange, they both feel they are increasing their subjective utility. That’s right, everyone is better off. With peaceful, voluntary exchange, there are no losers. Everybody wins. They don’t break even. They win. Wow. You mean that everybody is better off? Yes. Wait, but what about exploitation? Doesn’t exist. No one was forced to make the deal. Everyone acted in their own self interest. Not just the corporation. Both sides to the exchange did.–lennow

Fortunately my name is Rhett, not aristotle.

I did not suggest otherwise. I agree that individuals will always act in their own best interests. however, you make at least two false assumptions.

(1) many, if not most, interactions between people, states, PDAs, et al will not be based always voluntary interactions. it is obvious that many individual prefer to use coercion to achieve ends. It doesnt matter that this is irrational in your opinion, what matters is that it is a fact.

(2) the most desirable form of interaction between people is the one that anarchists envision, namely voluntary. however, you assume too much when you assume that all of these interactions willl be primarily driven by economic considerations. for better or worse, history has shown that this is false.

the first consideration is water, food, warmth, shelter, et al. – however, once these base needs are attained, individuals are motivated by myriad unrelated and competing goals that must be met in a world with limited resources. When these goals come into conflict, then war is the result.

moreover, many of these disagreements are not related to issues of economic scarcity. they are related to spiritual disputes and simply the desire of many, if not all people, to seek out and increase power over their fellow man.

to repeat what I stated above, If given the choice, or value judgment, of maintaining the same power level over fellow humans or increasing relative power over those same humans — a rational individual will obviously choose to increase power relative to his fellow man irrespective of a decrease in societal health and well being.

in sum, individuals value both material (economic) well being – however this does not mean that when base needs are satisfied that they will cast off an equally valued goal of security.

anarchists dont understand this concept, namely that the quest for power and security over their fellow man has up to this point in recorded history trumped economic goals when base material needs are met. They think that market forces and overall prosperity will trump an individual’s distrust in his fellow man that will lead to situations when a rogue PDA will use its power to gain MORE power.

indeed, our entire society is based on man’s distrust of his fellow man since the dawn of civilization. the “goodwill” of market forces and the "benevolence of “PDAs” will not correct this truth.

just observe the best and largest anarchic experiment yet conducted — the geopolitic.

hobbes was right.

I have to get back to work, i will respond to your post and seiben’s later.

Rettoper, wars aren’t fought just because one side is stronger than the other.-- yuberries

of course they are. History and empirical evidence confirm this.

most wars are fought when one adversary sees a change in the balance of power and uses this temporary advantage to prey on his competitor.

Even if given that a centrally planned army could defeat a private one (I disagree), what would be the incentive for a state to invade a fully realized anarcho-capitalist society?–yuberreis

Your wrong, an anarchic society could be overrun by a larger aggressive statist army irrespective of how efficient its economy.

the incentive for attacking any state would not change simply because the victim was a different system (in this case anarchic) – if you want to determine the possible motives for a state to destroy another simply open a history book, there are thousands of reason to sack a neighbor.

It is unlikely the inhabitants would be willing to go back to involuntary servitude. --yuberries

if people didnt want to go back to servitude, then why did they vote for obama and pelosi ???

The state would have to either pillage and go away, or turn the area into a quagmire.–yuberries

welcome to the current geopolitic that happens to be an example of what would happen in your anarchic “paradise” – the only difference is that instead of nation-states acting within an anarchic environment you would have PDAs acting within the same anarchic environment.

How can it be worth it for a state to invest in a highly costly operation that has no long term profit returns?–yuberries

because an individual is not motivated by economic goals only.

history and human actions have shown that when an individual satisfys base needs (food, water, shelter, et al) he seeks to satisfy his need to be secure.

if security over his fellow man can be assured then he moves onto to other goals that are not all economic in nature.

the ancap is fatally flawed in discounting an individual’s strong desire to gain a measure of security over his fellow man at the expense of some liberty and prosperity.

moreover, the anarchist is flawed in putting his trust in “market forces” to deter an individual’s strong desire to gain power relative to his fellow man to insure greater security in a world of scarce resources.

Rettoper,

“Hunch” is not an attack word. Hunches, far from being something to be despised in general, are the basis of all entrepreneurial judgment. If, based on your hunches about human proclivities, you don’t think anarcho-capitalism will pan out, then you are free to allocate your resources accordingly. Just don’t try to pass off your hunches as science or as the basis for any kind of ironclad argument.

Rettoper, wars aren’t fought just because one side is stronger than the other.-- yuberries

of course they are. History and empirical evidence confirm this.

most wars are fought when one adversary sees a change in the balance of power and uses this temporary advantage to prey on his competitor.

If this was the case, then all nations would be at war

Or at least all nations that have a clear power disparity.

Or at least all nations that have a clear power disparity.

I can’t imagine two nations being perfectly equal.

This, of course, is a lie. I never said “republicanism was a ‘new’ political construct.” There have been vastly different systems called “republics” including the one put forth by the U.S. founders in 1776.

Or as I said:

“The republics of ancient Greece and Rome weren’t anything like modern republics…”–angurse

if greece, rome, and America are not republics — why do you suppose they are called “republics”

it appears that either you or historians are playing fast and loose with sematics.

perhaps, you need to practice some revisionist re-defining of accepted definitions for these states.

If this was the case, then all nations would be at war-- angurse]

you need to actually read my posts. I am trying to be patient with you, but this is getting ponderous.

most wars are fought when one adversary sees a change in the balance of power and uses this temporary advantage to prey on his competitor.–Rettoper (emphasis added)

we are not talking about an instant in time, in which there is obviously no equality.

however, we are talking about a transition from a balance of power, albeit unequal, to a greater imbalance away from equilibrium, not equality, that increases the chances or opportunities for gains by predation.

it is a simple concept, do you understand it ?

if not, read correalates of war (sic), by singer et al