What praxeological precept(s) confirm anarchism over minarchism in providing for societal economic health AND societal security from external threats?

Economics Political Theory
141

“Anarcho-capitalism doesn’t equal anarchism. If Grayson, or anyone else, says differently then they are fools not to be taken seriously.”

I repeatedly stressed the distinction between ancap and anarchism to Retopper in our debate. However, had I made the mistake of not recognizing that distinction, I would thank you very much to not call me a fool, Angurse.

Calling people out is for the member issues forum. Please everyone, either take the time to patiently explain to Retopper how a priori economic science demonstrates the superiority of the private production of services over public production, and how security is a service, or just ignore him.

142

My original post:

please challenge the following case study, one of an infinite number debunking anarchic security (hypothetical since no anarchic societies have ever existed-- Rettoper

Your response:

““Blatant lie. The World, the Ifugao, the Yurok, the Icelandic Commonwealth, the Kuikuru, the Santals, Gaelic Ireland, the Tiv..””.-- angurse

Are trying to vindicate my claims? I don’t see “capitalism” or “anarcho-capitalism” anywhere. Anarchic societies (not the capitalist ones) have existed, to say otherwise is to lie.

Angurse,

I posted the link to show evidence of empirical research that shows a maximum level of societal growth at a level of government as a percentage of a nation’s GDP.

It didn’t actually show that though, you don’t need to do much reasearch in AE to see the fallacious reasoning behind the Rahn Curve, nor the uselessness of GDP, or the difficulty of measuring societal growth. To be fair, the video admits there are limitations.

i dont know where you came by the illusion that I posted the link to assert a coorelation between life expectancy and increased government.

Because of my quote that you replied to:

“Concurrently, life expectancy increased, its still increasing now as the U.S. creeps toward fascism. Attributing such feats to government in no way helps your case. Progress has come from technology, which grows best when government is away.”
You know, the one about life expectancy?

Indeed, I reject that assertion. For example, increased government is not a causal factor in increased life expectancy.

go back and read my posts carefully.

Please do the same for mine.

143

has anyone asked ‘what praxeological precepts confirm MINarchism’s efficacy at providing BOTH economic prosperity and societal security relative to Archism?’

144

I repeatedly stressed the distinction between ancap and anarchism to Retopper in our debate. However, had I made the mistake of not recognizing that distinction, I would thank you very much to not call me a fool, Angurse.

There is an “if” in my statement is there not?

145

caley,

in the absence of any a priori confirming anarchism over minarchism or even representative governance in providing for societal security from external threats – we have to fall back on empiricism.

note that if there was an a priori that confirmed anarchism over other systems, it would have revealed itself by anarcho-capitalism coming to the fore of societal systems.

for example, a priori truths dont have to be taught or learned, they are self-evident whether the actor knows he is following them, or not. Hence, “human actions” or praxeological truths should have led to the ascendancy of anarchism many years ago.

as a result of anarchism’s failure, my assertion is that there is no a priori that confirms it. Indeed, we may identify the a priori that condemns it.

146

joe,

same as anarchism, there are none yet identified.

147

…and like the Rahn curve of today, there would have been no reason whatsoever to believe it. Well, no reason except for the conservative religion.

148

Please everyone, either take the time to patiently explain to Retopper how a priori economic science demonstrates the superiority of the private production of services over public production, and how security is a service, or just ignore him.-- grayson

I acknowledge that private production of services is superior to public production. However, this tenet doesnt indicate or prove REAL output. For example, the former soviet union or any other statist regime, while inefficient, could still overwhelm an efficient smaller emerging anarchic society in REAL output as opposed to per capita output.

149

A priori truths are value-free statements and thus cannot establish which state is more desirable then the next. I’m surprised no one has brought up this point yet. Praxeology tells us nothing about what state is better, that is the job of thymology. The understanding of human action. What and why people value things.

150

caley,

if you believe anarchism is confirmed then its graph must be sloping downward (-) from left to right?

Indeed, I believe that empirical evidence indicates that growth or societal wealth reaches its apogee at approximately 15-20% of government/GDP

yet it begans to decline as government/GDP drops.

irrespective of where this decline begins, it would disprove anarchism in the absence of a irrefutable a priori confirming otherwise.

151

Praxeology tells us nothing about what state is better-- andrew cain

exactly, that is why I am perplexed that so many on this forum are unabashed proponents of a system that has no empirical leg to stand on in the absence of any praxeological precept to confirm it.

however, if any can give me the praxeological a priori that confirms anarchism over other systems at providing both societal wealth and security – I stand corrected.

however, I have a feeling that you are going to attack my assertions and qualify yours in your next post.

152

‘exactly, that is why I am perplexed that so many on this forum are unabashed proponents of a system that has no empirical leg to stand on in the absence of any praxeological precept to confirm it.’

It’s not that there is no system. There is. People just talk more about praxeology then thymology because they are more inclined to economics rather then historical or philosophical interpretation. They see human action but aren’t necessarily concerned with why it is happening which is fine because economics doesn’t really fascinate me like philosophy or history does. Either that is the case or when you say empiricism they take it to mean logical positivism which is not something that is necessarily supported by AE.

Thymology

‘however, if any can give me the praxeological a priori that confirms anarchism over other systems at providing both societal wealth and security – I stand corrected.’

Well to establish this you would need value statements which causes us to digress from praxeology into the world of thymology. Now I am inclined to assume that you value life, prosperity and the freedom to carry out your will so long as you do not infringe on the will of others or vice versa. However, just like in nature there are mutations of species. I think that those who value death, starvation and tyranny are such mutations.

153

I have to shut down, my cover is here ( I am a steam engineer in a hospital power plant).

Moreover, I will be out of the plant for a few days and my USB connect card at home is slow and I live in a river valley with poor reception. however I will be back.

I will leave you with these parting words of wisdom:

Government may even be called the most beneficial of all earthly institutions as without it no peaceful human cooperation, no civilization and no moral life would be possible. --Ludwig von Mises, Economic Freedom and Interventionism

at least von Mises understood human frailties and the irrational propensity of some to commit heinous, destablizing, and destructive anti-social acts that pure anarchism is sorely inadequate in checking.

154

‘Government may even be called the most beneficial of all earthly institutions as without it no peaceful human cooperation, no civilization and no moral life would be possible. --Ludwig von Mises, Economic Freedom and Interventionism’

Mises isn’t incapable of being wrong and I think Mises is comitting the same mistake as Hobbes in thinking that only government can make social cooperation possible.

155

the fundamental point is that there is no praxeological a priori that confirms anarchism as the most viable system for providing both economic prosperity and societal security against internal and external threats.

The point is that that praxeology doesn’t confirm anything, statism nor anarchism. However, it does show that polycentrism is more efficient.

moreover, there is a wealth of empirical evidence that shows anarchism to be a failed system.

As well as statism.

for example, you cant even name a single anarchic society of significance that exists today.

The world.

Moreover, you cant name a single techonological advancement that was discovered within an anarchic society.

Actually, there were agricultural and weapons developments. (I could name some particulars but I don’t think you’d really care)

More importantly,

“Moreover, you cant name a single techonological advancement that was discovered within a Minarchic society.”

Even more importantly,

1500: “Moreover, you cant name a single techonological advancement that was discovered within a democratic society.”

Whats your point?

Indeed, you cant cite anything of significance that was contributed throughout history by an anarchic society.

Njáls saga (from individuals within of course)

More importantly,

“Indeed, you cant cite anything of significance that was contributed throughout history by a minarchic society.”

Even more importantly,

1500: “Indeed, you cant cite anything of significance that was contributed throughout history by a democratic society.”

Whats your point?

and yet, you continue to sing its praises.

False. I haven’t praised anarchism itself, I’ve praised capitalism, which can only exist unfettered.

For example, what has anarchic society ever accomplished other than to exist in tiny insignificant enclaves for a time only to be rendered prostrate and extinct at the slightest provocation from religious, economic, or statist influences ?

That is an unanswerable question, societies don’t accomplish anything, only individuals.

156

Funny that I have not seen this supposed evidence. You must be posting from another planet. What I have seen in all OECD data is states with lower than that level having boom when we had recession. It’s the polished turds like Canada, UK, U.S. et al that are crumbling and falling behind in the world.

157

Yes. If you have more to gain by trading with someone than by attacking them, the system does not need defense.

These are all exceptions. I know they stick out in everyone’s mind because we pay attention to wars, but tension and conflict between nations does not cause war 999/1000 times.

So if we live in such a peaceful world, won’t an ancap society be able to function? America won’t invade it because its not a despotic regime

Japan and china are not first order democracies. The United States attacks “not first order” democracies in south america all the time. Particularly if you think that debt slavery is aggression (I lend money to the warlord, and then pretend like the PEOPLE owe me).

158

E.R.O.,

Hey Jonathan, I’m not sure what I was talking about, but you are right.

Nothing. You just said that you had shown Ret a number of examples of societies with private laws. My point is that, for the most part, law has always originated from the private sector.

159

There are none. Again, praxeology is the science of human action. It isn’t a bunch of statements lumped together which “confirm” anarchism over minarchism or vice versa. You’re asking if a value-free science “confirms” something that requires a value judgement (e.g. what is “better” or what is “good”).

EDIT NO. 1: And what measures are you using? Are you using GDP? Well, I’m sure that government could increase GDP over the long-run by a Singapore-like forced savings program. And what about societal security? If a government taxes 20% of national income and puts all of it toward security, then certainly such a society would have “better” societal security than an anarchist society that only puts forth 5% of national income towards security. The problem with both of the previous examples from a utilitarian perspective is that neither forced savings/investment or forced security payments are in line with consumer preferences. Therein lies the superiority of anarchism.

EDIT NO. 2: That said, perhaps we could state that an anarchist society would have “better” security regardless of the circumstances, if we consider taxation to be theft or extortion (which it is). To use the above example, the country with a 20% tax rate would mean that each year, 1/5th of people’s income is stolen by the government. In contrast, the anarchist society would have a 0% tax rate, meaning that no income would be stolen from the people by a government. So even if the anarchist society had a higher crime rate (which it probably would not), it would still have “better” security than the society ruled by a government.

160

That is true. Read page 3 of the Hasnas piece I cited on how “common law” was preempted by civil legislation. People today are so shortsighted on such things as law or IP. We did fine, at least great works of art were still created, without IP. For centuries there were no state uniformed police. There’s an interesting book by Robert Heilbroner called The Future as History, where he claims that people have changed from being past-looking to future-looking with the rise of 20th century technology.