What was it like to live in the USSR?

Miscellaneous History
41

I bet it must be hard for you to accept it but Red Army was murderous organization. They fought not only with real Nazis but whoever soviet propaganda depicted as Nazi - including tens of thousands of polish resistance army soldiers (Armia Krajowa) that fought against Nazi from the very first day of the war. They not only executed all officers of polish army in Katyn but also they have been negating the fact (blaming Nazis for this crime) for almost 50 years after the war (you could have been arrested for speaking truth about Katyn). During the Warsaw Uprising the Red Army that was marching West just stopped few miles before Warsaw, they waited for a month to let the Nazis quell the uprising and slaughter polish resistance soldiers, and only after that they “liberated” Poland’s capital city. But I believe that the fact of signing Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and attacking Poland two weeks after the attack of Germany proves that Red Army was not counterweight for Nazis - in fact it cooperated with Nazis for many years and shared the same values although named differently.

Please understand that I dont blame you or your family, I am not expecting any apologies,all I am asking from you is to acknowledge these facts.

Jakub Staniak

42

Who’s saying it wasn’t? I was talking about individuals’ situation.

Nazis and Commies were the two worst regimes that happened in Europe since the Romans with their mass murders, there’s no mistake about it. However, you have to remember that the Poles were no saints either. They annexed parts of Ukraine and Checkoslovakia and tried to annex some other regions. And Pilsudski was an authoritarian dictator with all the typical methods like imprisoning political opponents. Better than Hitler or Stalin for sure, but no limited government libertarian either.

43

You don’t know Natalie, so please don’t post stuff like this. She’s a pretty consistent libertarian, and you shouldn’t be attributing motives to her you cannot possibly understand. Almost universally, all veteran members of this community oppose war and violence. Until you know otherwise, it would be safe to run with that assumption.

44

My entire family is Polish and some of them have traveled to the USSR when it still existed. My grandma and grandpa traveled to Ukraine when it was a part of the USSR under Brezhnev, and both have said that the USSR was a horrible place to live. The USSR was a total police state where many were afraid of any kind of dissent and it also had some of the lowest living standards in the Soviet bloc (at least when compared to Poland, East Germany, and Czechoslovakia).

45

Opinion is not fact.

Everyone during 1940s was either drafted or under compulsion to work for the “war effort”.

Yes, let’s alienate the whole segment of population that can potentially help us fight for our freedom (unless you’re naive enough to think that government will do it without a fight). Not mention that it distracts from the fact that the main culprit - and murderer - is the government (or any other government-like entity who uses organized force to gain power). Remove monopoly of force, and you’ll end up with militias and private security & defense organizations (like Blackwater, but serving the private sector).

Calling someone “murderous thug” without checking all the circumstances is not a “criticism”. It’s stupid labeling that our media is so fond of, where gun owners are called dangerous vigilantes, militia is full of white supremacists and veterans are crazy maniacs who did nothing but killed babies.

By the by, the most brutal organization in the USSR was not the actual fighting army (especially during the war) but NKVD/KGB. They were primarily responsible to mass murders and incarcerations. The military, especially the officers, was tightly controlled by their comissars since Stalin was always afraid that a popular military commander would overthrow him. There were some big purges in the military ranks right before WWII which was one of the reasons Soviets did so poorly in the first months of the war. In addition to that, the party goons used some interesting tactics to ensure the loyalty of the troops like holding their family members as hostages and shooting their own retreating troops. Oh, and Stalin refused to acknowledged or trade for the Soviet POWs, even for his own son. Millions of them were considered traitors and many were actually imprisoned after the war. So in addition of risking death, disability and imprisonment at the hands of the enemy you’d also had a good chance of being killed by your own government. Believe it or not, but the Red Army was far from a kind of the safe haven for criminals.

46

To be fair, it’s hard to be objective when it comes to your own family [:)] However, I don’t believe they and other veterans I talked to enjoyed war or hated all Germans (despite the Soviet propaganda).

Nothing is a better antidote against violence than actually being involved in war.

47

Yes, it’s quite ironic considering that Russia was the center of the empire with so many resources available. Even most Soviet republics somehow had a better standard of living (Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia in particular).

48

You are not talking about the military are you ? You can’t be that confused. You think that the military, which are totalitarians to the core, are going to fight the government ? Their ‘mission’ is to defend the government. They are the government.

The very foundation of the state is the army. Basic libertarian insight - an insight right wingers seem to have a problem grasping.

You mean criminal organizations like blackwater ? Is that your vision of a free society ?

Right. It’s a statement of fact. And I stand by my comments. I said that the commies and the military get along because they ultimately are both brutal collectivists.

There’s a good deal of truth in that. Again, the sort of truth that right wingers don’t want to hear.

49

Oh Juan, you are so bi-polar with your right and left paradigm. There are bigger problems in this world than right wingers.

50

Why not? It happened before. Remember Colonial forces and confederate army?

Again, stop generalising. People volunteer for different reasons, especially in time of war. Not to mention that sometimes they don’t even have a choice.

There’re plenty of ex-military (or even current military personnel) on various libertarian boards. Many of them are openly anti-government, pro-limited government or even anarchists. Interestingly enough, I don’t see other government workers. Tax collectors… not them [:^)]

They’re only servants. The high-ranking officers can be influential but they don’t make political decisions (at least in the US). Remove the government, and they will either have to find another line of work or become private mercenaries.

Aren’t you forgetting about police, federal agencies, IRS, etc? Army is only one of the enforcement branches these days. It can be used against the people, of course, but even if a small portion stops believing in the government and is actually willing to fight against it, than it has a chance of crumbling it.

A free society is where there’s no monopoly on the use of force. It’s where I can use whatever means necessary to defend myself, my property or my family. Or join the militia and mutual defense organizations. Or yes, pay to the for-profit professionals - Blackwater is just used as an example of a private security firm, perhaps not the best one, considering their history.

Seriously, read some ideas about how the private defense agencies might operate in the free market.

Did you even read what I wrote? Communists (in the USSR, at least) distrusted the military (the actual fighting forces). They killed a lot of military personnel and drafted people against their will and even tried to get rid of any expressions of patriotism (i.e. love of one’s country). That doesn’t look like “getting along nicely” to me.

You do realize that in the past there were plenty of mercenaries in history whose sole motivation was to earn money by fighting for the highest bidder (often governments, but not necessarily so)? They were certainly brutal, but not “collectivists”. At some point central governments realized that it’s far safer to nationalize all the armed forces and outlaw the independents. I mean, what if people decide to hire mercenaries against their own lords and masters? Scary thought indeed!

The same kind of truth that you see in the op-eds on “global warming” and wonders of socialized healthcare?

Please enlighten me about the dangers of private gun ownership and the safety of the police state.

And what’s with the “right wing” fixation? Do you seriously believe that all gun owners support Republicans?

51

They want to own guns to shoot the tax collectors! The “murderous thugs” [;)]

52

I am not a veteran, but I was a PFC in the U.S. Army four sometime more than four months. Although I did not deploy, obviously, I did get to know many different personalities in the service. During my short stay in the Army I suffered a lot of paid from pre-existing back problems (mild kyphosis), thanks to the 100lb.+ packs us infantrymen had to carry during marches and FTXs. I complained and asked them to change my MOS—that is, change my specialty; I told them that another combat specialty was fine, such as artillery or armor—they gave me 800mg pain killers and told me to take four a day, instead. I also had a lot of time to think about my future—I had signed a five year contract—and I thought that once my term was over I was going to go back to the civilian world with absolutely no marketable skills. Of course, there was also the fear of losing limbs in Iraq, which I was guaranteed to go to (all infantrymen deploy). This is not information I usually give out, but I went AWOL and went back to my homeland (Spain)—there, I became a deserter. I turned myself in a year later, only to be discharged with an Other Than Honorable Discharge (technically, it’s neutral, since it’s not Dishonourable, but it’s also not a General or Honourable Discharge; I’m hoping that after I get my degree I can get it upgraded to a General Discharge, which will not preclude me as much from several employment options).

I did not join the military because I enjoy killing people. Up until then, I had only fired a gun once in my life. I believe I was two years old. I joined the military because my first two years at a university had been a fiasco, and I didn’t want to live with my parents and I didn’t want to go look for a job. Instead, I chose the simpler option of joining the Army. It is a job, but it’s not a job you have to apply for, really—you are accepted without question. They lured me in with the promise of using cool weapons. Nobody has a clear idea of what war is until they live through one, or something that is close to one. As I said, I never went to war, but infantry OSUT did open me up to some of the realities. The point is, those that join to kill people are few. Most join due to financial issues—the armed forces are almost a guaranteed paycheck for the rest of your life, if you chose to retire through the armed forces. The benefits are great (at the expense of everybody else, of course), et cetera.

To marginalize all soldiers are murderers, just because the institution they fight for was designed to monopolize power for the State, is showing ignorance and a clear bias. It is true that a majority of soldiers have a misguided view on what freedom is, and what one has to do to guarantee their freedoms. Soldiers are not the type to be well read, nor aware of the truth in regards to the acts of their government to restrict the freedoms that soldiers believe they are fighting for. A lot of them believe that fighting in Iraq is necessary to protect the United States. It is all part of an indoctrination committed to by the State. The individual soldier should not be blamed. Besides, the fact that more and more soldiers are “converting” to libertarianism shows that not all soldiers are malintentioned. During Cato University 2009, I met two Naval Academy graduates and one graduate from the Army Academy at West Point. I also met a former-Marine. None of these men were murderers.

53

Uh oh. Instead of getting a honest job you chose the easy way out, which included murdering anybody your masters told you to murder. Good for you. ‘We’ need more ‘libertarians’ like you and Natalie.

54

juan what he did was ugly but not criminal. he didnt murder anyone or threaten anyone with murder. (did you point your gun at people?i hope not…) the worst thing he (probably) did was accept stolen property as payment. so there is a question over net tax payer or net tax consumer. if he works as a productive member of society for any significant period of time i would be gobsmacked if he didnt end up to be a net tax payer like the rest of us.

i certainly don’t read them as advocating for the military, or excusing actual crimes of soldiers. though if they ever did this in the past they are probably no different from us in that we have all of us acknowledge our imperfections and that we have at one time or another harbored silly dieas, and maybe even did wrong acts we now regret.

i like a big tent.

55

Even had a prior service member gone to war, is there no such thing as forgiveness? Libertarians who have been to war are useful, because they provide invaluable insight into war and the machinations of the State. Or, should all soldiers be executed, or at best marginalized from society? I’m not sure what the usefulness of insulting service members and grouping them into “murderers” and refusing to accept them as libertarians is, Juan.

56

Basically, you don’t know what you are talking about. What defines a free-society is unconditional respect for individual rights.

57

It’s odd here in former Yugoslavia, the people, for the most part, realize that socialism destroyed their economy and destroyed them psychologically (no one trusts the government, and they’re all afraid to save/hold money due to hyper-inflation). But no one blames Tito; in fact, he’s hailed as a great leader, and many long for the days of “Yugoslavian dominance.” They can’t tell you why socialism failed from an economic point of view; they merely explain that only Tito could keep the Croatians, Serbians, Slovenes, and Montenegrins together. Each party blames others for the failure, without actually acknowledging the failure of socialism.

58

Right, we need more “libertarians” like Juan who slander people they haven’t met and tell blatant lies.

59

Oh, unlike some white tower libertarians, I know it very well. I know what’s it like to live in a totalitarian state and the kind of defenselessness you feel when you can’t protect yourself even against “official” crimes.

Exactly how you’re going to protect your freedom without the right of self-defense?

And what’s unconditional respect? Is it some kind of a zombie socialist paradise where everyone agrees to the party line?

60

… Can it get any more clear ?

Not sure how forgiveness enters the picture. You mean the reparations that soldiers owe for all the damage they cause ?

Or do you think that the victims who somehow avoid death should ‘forgive’ the criminals that attack them ?

You just keep saying the wrong thing. If A kills B, unless A did so in self-defense, A is a murderer - libertarianism is built around that sort of moral fact.

Suggesting that calling a spade a spade is an insult, is wrong in more than one way.

Anyway, a couple of basic points…

  1. libertarianism is about peaceful cooperation not war.
  2. individuals are individually responsible for their acts.