whats up with bitcoin and other crypto currencies?

Seriaiah,

Thing is, I am experiencing strong feelings of been there, done that, w.r.t. bitcoin and its fanatical adherents who have no clue. My many blogs [do a search for bitcoin] and many posts here make very clear what’s what. None of said fanatics have refuted Mises’ regression theorem, or shown why it doesn’t apply to bitcoin.

Anenome showed new levels of ignorance, though, when he wrote “intrinsic value, as money”. I have the energy to point out his error, but not to engage in the sure to be long back and forth about it, because, like I say, I’ve been through it all before.

So go ahead, feel good, thinking you have defended bitcoin’s integrity and value. I leave to the reader to figure things out, having provided my side of the story [which most Austrians agree with, btw] in easy to read fashion on my blog.

My last post on this subject.

Holy cow! My post, of all the posts he’s responded to, made him just quit the entire subject.

Jees, I don’t even know what to say. I’d like to thank my family and friends for believing in me, my boss for not paying a whole lot of attention while I’m at work, and Kate Beckinsale for being so fine.
I… I mean wow… I promised myself I wouldn’t cry…

You took Anenome’s “intrinsic value, as money” way out of context, but I don’t need to defend him/her, and you’re not even going to respond to this anyway, right!

Wow, wait 'til I tell this to that cute girl at the pharmacy, maybe she’ll finally give me her number this time.

ACTIVITY!
de·ni·al (d-nl)
n.
An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.

I’ll leave it as an exercise for future readers to see how the above definition applies to this conversation.

Edit: She didn’t give me her number. :frowning:

Lmao, you win the internets today :slight_smile:

Keep ignoring that your own Mises quote proves my point. Keep ignoring it. Good Dave.

Can someone answer this question?..

How does Mises’s Regression Theorem explain the use of shells as money? I find it hard to believe they were useful in any way before they became money.

As to Bitcoin. It’s unique. It’s an artificially created good (commodity) with the express purpose of becoming money or a medium of exchange.

As any economist knows - you can sell items to get other items that have more exchange value. Bitcoin is not even close to being there for mainstream goods. It most definitely IS there in illicit realms.

As to price fluctuations - happens with EVERY commodity including money. You don’t notice it as much with the mainstream currencies because we are like a fish in water with them. A simple way to avoid massive fuctuations in a commodity market is to immediately exchange the commodity into currency that is not very volatile.

One of the most unique features of Bicoin is that you can “deposit” your money while not even online. You can also have the retrieval code memorized in your mind so that there is no instance of it anywhere in the physical world.

The beauty of gold, silver, etc. are their decentralized properties. The problem is they are easily stolen no matter where you hide them. With Bitcoin you can hide it in plain site of the entire world and no one will a. be able to get it and b. be able to find out it’s yours. The added benefit is your Bitcoins take up zero space.

These features are nice but not perfect. Nevertheless the idea of a decentralized currency that has the privacy benefits of metal cash is a good one and (in my opinion) headed in the right direction.

How does Mises’s Regression Theorem explain the use of shells as money? I find it hard to believe they were useful in any way before they became money.

  1. Wikipedia on wampum:

When Europeans came to the Americas, they realized the importance of wampum to Native people. While the Native people did not use it as money, the New England colonies used it as a medium of exchange.

  1. Wikipedia on Shell money:

The use of shells in trade began as direct commodity exchange, the shells having value as body ornamentation.

It seems like you have a need to prove “Mises’s Regression Theorem” even with evidence to the contrary.

The Theorem (in essence) says that a thing must be valued for one or more non-exchange purposes by one or more people before it can be used for indirect exchange.

Bitcoin violates the theorem. 1. It was not valued for one or more non-exchange purposes before it was used for indirect exchange. 2. There can be no argument that it IS used for indirect exchange. It is.

Now you could say that cryptology itself was valuable before it was adapted to create a virtual commodity useful as a medium of exchange but that would be really pushing it - don’t you think?

The Theorem (in essence) says that a thing must be valued for one or more non-exchange purposes by one or more people before it can be used for indirect exchange.

Your error, of course, lies in the phrase “one or more”. It’s like saying “A mountain is a mound of earth one or more inches high”

Your error, of course, lies in the phrase “one or more”. It’s like saying “A mountain is a mound of earth one or more inches high”

Not sure what you mean. Does it matter whether one person or a hundred used it for something other than exchange purposes before it was a medium of exchange? No one valued Bitcoins for any reason before they became a medium of exchange. They were created specifically for that purpose ( a medium of exchange). Again, the underlying encryption was valued before Bitcoins but I think that would be stretching the facts to fit the Theorem.

So I guess I don’t understand your point.

docsulo,

Let’s begin at the beginning.

You go to a garage sale. There is some gizmo on the table you have never seen before. The owner wants ten bucks for it. Are you getting the bargain of the century or are you being ripped off? How would you decide?

Not sure how your question relates, I’ll answer it though and then ask my own questions…

Answer: I personally wouldn’t ask the price of something when I didn’t know what it was. But to play along, I would ask what it’s used for and I would judge it’s value in relation to its usefulness to me and I’d then judge its price in relation to other similar objects that can do the same or a similar thing.

Now my question:

Put all theory aside. Do you agree that Bitcoins are being used as a medium of exchange? It doesn’t really matter that a theory says they shouldn’t. They are. Essentially Mises and Rothbard said it would be impossible for a medium of exchange to come from something just because someone said it should be so. Rothbard essentially said a commodity not already accepted in exchange for other commodities would have no basis to be
valued as a medium of exchange. Bitcoins seem to go against that since they were created specifically as a medium of exchange and were not valued before that (since they didn’t exist before that). Now they may not remain something that is used as a medium of exchange indefinitely - but they are now and that simple fact puts the Theorem in dispute UNLESS you want to skew the facts to fit the theorem.

Here is a direct quote from Rothbard:

This process: the cumulative development of a medium of exchange on the free market–is the only way money can become established. Money cannot originate in any other way, neither by everyone suddenly deciding to create money out of useless material, nor by government calling bits of paper “money.” For embedded in the demand for money is knowledge of the money-prices of the immediate past; in contrast to directly-used consumers’ or producers’ goods, money must have pre-existing prices on which to ground a demand. But the only way this can happen is by beginning with a useful commodity under barter, and then adding demand for a medium for exchange to the previous demand for direct use (e.g., for ornaments, in the case of gold.

I have the utmost respect for Rothbard and Mises but in this particular case it seems that something has happened that they didn’t forsee or something I don’t see. Bitcoin was not a “useful commodity” that could be used in barter. It was a commodity created specifically to barter (or as a medium of exchange) and therefore skips the important first step in the whole regression.

Other virtual “currencies” are slightly different - there are some (like game currencies) that had a “usefulness” within a game and then began to be used as an medium of exchange in other areas. This is not the case with Bitcoin.

I don’t want to go back and forth on this. If you think I’m wrong then explain your reasoning. I’d be more than happy to change my mind once given a reasonable explanation that doesn’t try to stretch the facts to fit a theorem.

dosulo,

Fair enough.

Short answer. Rothbard was talking about something becoming “generally accepted” or “commonly accepted” as a medium of exchange or a money. If you look up Wikipedia on “money”, that is the very first thing the article says about money. It has to be, by definition, generally accepted. And this is not some weird Austrian thing, it is the standard definition of money in the economist community.

When asked to please nail down what they mean by generally accepted, all economists give the same answer. There is no precise dividing line. This however, does not make the phrase meaningless. For example, “rich” is imprecisely defined, but a homeless vagabond is obviously not rich. Same with generally accepted.

“Medium of exchange”. also, implies a great degree of acceptance. The only difference between money and medium of axchange is one of degree, how generally accepted is it. Generally accepted = medium of exchange. Very widely generally accepted = money.

The reason for this proviso is that a few friends or weirdos or what have you who agree among themselves to use something or other as a coupon in their transactions does not make that something into a medium of exchange, nor into money.

EDIT: For the same reason, they did not insist that a money be universally accepted within an economy, because then three or four nutjobs who refuse it would negate it from being money, which is obviously not the case.

Bottom line, momey means almost universally accepted with in an economy. You can get anyhthing you want with it.

Mises Regression Theorm deals with the question, how does something become money, meaning, by definition, how does it become widely accepted and able to buy almost anything from almost everyone within a given economy. And of course, the first step, he concludes, is that it was used by many people and valued by many people for its non-exchange value, like cigarettes in a prison.

With all that preliminary info, we now see why bitcoin has not contradicted the Regression Theorem. It is not in comon use by anyone. You can only buy a couple of items with it. Certainly you cannot buy everything even a tiny store, like a 7-11 or a gas station that sells food and a few other things on the side, would stock. Let’s not even talk about WalMart.

And the few people who use bitcoin do not use it for all, or even most, or even 5%, of their transactions. They buy an odd slice of pizza, if that. What really interests the bitcoin guys is buying low and selling the bitcoin itself to the next sucker.

So that saying it is a money now, or even a mere medium of exchange, is laughable.

Where’d you come up with that statistic?

What makes you say that?

“Not a medium of exchange”? Now you want to call them “coupons”? I’m straining to see the similarity.

Bitcoin has solved all of the big hurdles of a cryptocurrency, nearly all of its attributes meet or surpass gold for being used as a medium of exchange. It is secure, anonymous, and scarce. It is as of this moment, being used to facilitate transactions between people.
Since you have not, nor will you ever, be able to refute those points, you want to win a symantics game. How sad, but just for giggles, what kind of hoop does Bitcoin have to jump through to be “a medium of exchange” in your mind?

Smiling Dave accuses Bitcoin proponants of being fanatics, but he is the one who clings to Mises like it is religious scripture. Mises did get things wrong you know, and if he was alive in the digital age a portion of his economic theory would be different, possibly this very subject.

So… Bitcoin violates Mises Regression Thereom. So what? Look outside the window, its the digital age - people need an easy transaction medium and a crypto currency of this exact sort will eventually succeed and challenge State controlled fiat money.

Let me bring some reality here… I open my wallet and take out a paper note. It probably violates Mises regression thereom, but I use it every day to buy stuff. So it is money. Its shiite money, and we much prefer to use something better, but its still money. To deny this is just an academic arguement over semantics.

After the collapse of our paper money systems, we will not be going back to carrying a sack of gold coins on the belt. There will be competing crypto currencies, and the price of them will be adjusted daily against real gold, just as USD is currently compared to gold.

Comparing a digital product like an ebook to bitcoin is not accurate. An ebook is not a scarce resource, it is infinitely reproducible.

A bitcoin account is not. Due the the cryptographic algorithm, there can only be one quantity of bitcoins in my account, they can only be transferred and used one time, this makes bitcoin a scarce resource unlike most digital products. The only way to get more Bitcoins is to trade for them, or use physical scarce resources to mine for them (electricity that powers the computer).

Bitcoin has all the other advantages of good money, portability, divisibility, no debasement e.t.c e.t.c

I really have no idea why there is so many whiners out there knocking it.

agisthos,

Do you tie your shoelaces without help?

Not only does paper money not violate the Regression Theorem, but the entire purpose of the Regression Theorem was to provide an explanation for the value of fiat currencies (Including paper money.)

Dave insists on using the Regression Theorem where it clearly doesn’t apply, but that’s another story.

Sure, my point is it’s an academic arguement. It has no relevance as to whether a crypto currency will succeed or fail. Bitcoin is already used (in a very limited way) to trade for services in real physical goods. Bitcoin gets eveything right apart from the block chain being visible and unencrypted. Whether it breaks through and become a popular medium of exchange is another matter.

No gold exchange is going to work due to the need for central clearinghouses, that can and are easily shut down by the State. The only way to collapse the current paper money system is a black market in a new medium of exchange for the modern technological world. It will not be gold, it will be a crypto currency. Sam Konkin’s counter-economics for the digital age.

The block chain must be unencrypted, that’s integral to the whole system. Every Bitcoin user must be able to download and verify the block chain before they can perform transactions.

That said, the only “weakness” I’ve found is that Bitcoin has no industrial use, but that’s a worthy tradeoff for its greatest strengths; Flexibility, anonymity, decentralisation, cheap transaction costs, and little storage requirements.

Yep. Incidentally, this same problem would occur if one were to try to make a gold redeemable cryptocurrency.

Academics is having a hard time catching up with Bitcoin. :slight_smile: